S1 E1: Donald McIntyre on Bitcoin, The Teachings of Tim May and Nick Szabo, and the History of Money
In this season premiere, Donald McIntyre talks about the anthropological and historical elements that led to the creation of Bitcoin, and reveals his admiration and affinity for the works of Tim May and Nick Szabo.
The interview is currently available on YouTube (which features stunning images from Transfăgărășan in Romania, and has a couple of visual advantages such as playing at higher speeds and displaying a transcript via closed caption that can even be translated in most languages) and directly from the RSS feed.
Hopefully, the application to Apple Podcasts will also be approved soon to enable everyone interested to find the information.
If you find this podcast useful, feel free to donate BTC at the following address: 35c9yeNt3eBYsRkNZB3fMwVzrkvL2efUj4
50% of donations made to this address will be sent to Mr. Donald McIntyre, as a way of rewarding him for the time and effort that he put into learning all these fascinating facts and speaking about them on the Bitcoin Takeover Podcast.
Topics and timestamps:
0:50 – Introduction
2:50 – Was Bitcoin Inevitable?
6:45 – Cypherpunks
7:50 – Desire for Privacy and Sound Money
9:30 – Money as Freedom
13:00 – Trust Minimization
14:40 – Nick Szabo’s Social Scalability
18:30 – Privacy and Intelligence Agencies
24:00 – Not Your Keys, Not Your Coins
30:00 – Comments on Centralized Projects
32:00 – Views on Hyperbitcoinization
39:45 – The 1% Wasn’t First in Bitcoin
44:00 – The Early Bitcoin Days
44:50 – Bitcoin as a Biological Invention, Nick Szabo’s Approach, The Origins of Money
57:00 – Nick Szabo, Tim May, Wei Dai, Hal Finney, Satoshi Nakamoto
1:10:00 – Bitcoin’s Game Theory
1:15:00 – Satoshi and Nick Szabo Are Just Like Newton and Leibnitz
1:19:00 – What Was Tim May Like?
1:22:00 – David Chaum
1:26:00 – Cypherpunk Inventions
1:30:00 – Tim May and Wei Dai on Violence
1:32:00 – What Is Ethereum?
1:38:00 – How ETC Supplements BTC
1:42:00 – Bitcoin and Ethereum Classic in 10 Years
1:53:00 – The Only Legitimate Hard Fork in Bitcoin
1:54:00 – Governments and Bitcoin
1:58:00 – Miners’ Attacks on Bitcoin Supply and Block Reward
Automatic YouTube Transcript
0:00:45.649,0:00:49.170 hello and welcome to the Bitcoin takeover 0:00:49.170,0:00:55.140 I'm Vlad and today my guest is mr. Donald MacIntyre whom I've met from a 0:00:55.140,0:01:00.600 previous interview which I've done and he is probably best known in the field 0:01:00.600,0:01:08.369 for his advocacy of aetherium after the DAO hack he stuck with the eatery of 0:01:08.369,0:01:12.500 classic side he believes in immutability he likes 0:01:12.500,0:01:18.720 everything that abides to the laws of nature and when you talk to him he 0:01:18.720,0:01:24.869 presents himself as somebody who's involved in business and sales but if 0:01:24.869,0:01:30.959 you have a longer conversation you'll notice that he has vast knowledge about 0:01:30.959,0:01:36.149 issues such as anthropology and he likes everything that deals with human 0:01:36.149,0:01:41.880 evolution human societies I guess he's into philosophy too and 0:01:41.880,0:01:46.609 it's good to have him here and talk about what bitcoin actually means in 0:01:46.609,0:01:50.689 terms of evolution so hello mr. MacIntyre 0:01:50.689,0:01:55.979 hello vlad thank you very much for having me yeah I'm happy that we get to 0:01:55.979,0:02:03.719 do this as the Bitcoin takeover is all about issues which turn cryptocurrencies 0:02:03.719,0:02:10.320 and Bitcoin in particular into a serious matter we no longer talk about the 0:02:10.320,0:02:15.600 mainstream media narrative of a Ponzi scheme or something that will collapse 0:02:15.600,0:02:22.049 we actually look into the future and see what this type of income fiscal money 0:02:22.049,0:02:27.450 that cannot be confiscated how do you see complicity it's a bowl in confiscate 0:02:27.450,0:02:32.459 able I guess yeah encompass what our problems we're both not English native 0:02:32.459,0:02:39.450 speakers oh yeah but what can having an asset which cannot be confiscated mean 0:02:39.450,0:02:44.389 for governments which were used to confiscating and imposing their own 0:02:44.389,0:02:51.720 monetary policies and my first question to you actually is do you think that it 0:02:51.720,0:02:56.180 was inevitable for us to get to this stage 0:03:01.160,0:03:06.560 I never thought of that if it was inevitable when when I look I'm just 0:03:06.560,0:03:12.410 just - just to clarify what you said about me me introduction I I am I'm just 0:03:12.410,0:03:19.220 an amateur and I like to review history and anthropology and geography of 0:03:19.220,0:03:24.620 different places etc - to understand the origin of things but regarding that what 0:03:24.620,0:03:27.670 what I see is that 0:03:27.819,0:03:38.049 in the last three 3.5 million years we have evolved and the world was made up 0:03:38.049,0:03:45.310 of small groups the world meaning humans small groups families and that may be 0:03:45.310,0:03:53.230 they interacted and cooperated together and then in the last twenty or ten 0:03:53.230,0:03:59.379 thousand years after the the last ice age we we gathered in larger groups we 0:03:59.379,0:04:04.859 form like villages and towns and and then with agriculture and a store ilysm 0:04:04.859,0:04:10.419 we became more efficient so we those small villages and towns became bigger 0:04:10.419,0:04:16.000 and then you had the bigger cities or city-states in Mesopotamia and then the 0:04:16.000,0:04:22.030 Greeks and then the Roman Empire etc so so we became not only city-states but 0:04:22.030,0:04:29.650 the nation's and then empires now so although all that evolution I think 0:04:29.650,0:04:35.500 was in the last maybe ten thousand years so this thing of having top-down 0:04:35.500,0:04:46.030 government and top-down law and rules and systems such as money either gold 0:04:46.030,0:04:52.810 coins or fiat money imposed by by town governments it's pretty new you know so 0:04:52.810,0:05:04.300 in that sense in terms of inevitability I think that it is inevitable that we 0:05:04.300,0:05:09.280 still have the brains evolved for the previous stage not not for these huge 0:05:09.280,0:05:14.889 nations and cities that we live in now for example la 20 million people the 0:05:14.889,0:05:19.750 whole metropolitan area and we York 20 million people and then you have bigger 0:05:19.750,0:05:24.120 cities like stole in South Korea 33 million people in the metropolitan area 0:05:24.120,0:05:30.669 that that's unnatural for our brain so so I think we have a natural tendency to 0:05:30.669,0:05:35.330 believe in our individuality and individual 0:05:35.330,0:05:44.870 liberté so that that's what I see and I don't know whether Bitcoin was 0:05:44.870,0:05:50.509 inevitable but what was inevitable is that we feel this uncomfort in these 0:05:50.509,0:05:59.620 huge structures on society which in a way like blur our individuality a lot 0:05:59.620,0:06:04.490 for example Millennials like to talk about collaborating and being together 0:06:04.490,0:06:10.909 and community and and giving to others without expect expecting anything in 0:06:10.909,0:06:14.270 return that those are ideals of small villages really 0:06:14.270,0:06:21.139 we're extrapolating to nations of 300 million people or multi nations like the 0:06:21.139,0:06:27.289 European Union that are like 500 million people so it's in a bit inevitable maybe 0:06:27.289,0:06:32.389 the fact that we don't feel comfortable or that is awkward it's like a cognitive 0:06:32.389,0:06:35.720 dissonance to live in these huge structures but at the same time have 0:06:35.720,0:06:41.509 this brain that hasn't that adapted yet because of that I think that cypherpunks 0:06:41.509,0:06:51.110 since the 80s starting with Chama and and then with a team it in may may he 0:06:51.110,0:06:56.900 rest in peace and and nick szabo and gray died and how kini and all the other 0:06:56.900,0:07:05.330 cypherpunks they they may be rationalize this and and and they were very strong 0:07:05.330,0:07:11.349 advocates of individuality no and and they thought correctly I think that 0:07:11.349,0:07:18.729 cryptography would they could be built with cryptography these online 0:07:18.729,0:07:26.960 environments where we can really create individuality and to do the reverse 0:07:26.960,0:07:32.270 instead of blurring the individual to blur the structures above not the 0:07:32.270,0:07:38.090 top-down structures and I think that in that sense a Bitcoin hits the response 0:07:38.090,0:07:42.380 but I don't know if it was inevitable we needed a group like cypherpunks to to 0:07:42.380,0:07:46.600 create it yes sir but I guess we have had this 0:07:46.600,0:07:54.340 desire to have gold that cannot be confiscated or a very long time we have 0:07:54.340,0:07:58.780 the kind of money that is always first and nobody else knows how much you're 0:07:58.780,0:08:03.790 holding even though right now with Bitcoin we have this privacy issue which 0:08:03.790,0:08:08.470 allows anyone to see how much you actually own just by knowing your public 0:08:08.470,0:08:17.080 key or tracking your transactions by IP or your browsing activity to see if you 0:08:17.080,0:08:23.110 have that any wallets lately so they can figure out how much you own just from 0:08:23.110,0:08:29.560 these factors but the desire and I guess the idea of Bitcoin is different from 0:08:29.560,0:08:34.419 the current implementation ultimately it's going to be sound money which 0:08:34.419,0:08:43.240 fulfills all the criteria and is going to become fungible - if the improvements 0:08:43.240,0:08:49.480 that they already have in the plans in the books mm-hmm and I think it's only 0:08:49.480,0:08:56.170 natural for humans to desire to own something without being able to lose it 0:08:56.170,0:09:02.860 by the force of somebody else yeah absolutely something and let's say we 0:09:02.860,0:09:08.080 are in the primitive societies and it was all about the survival of the 0:09:08.080,0:09:12.430 fittest and the strongest if you're getting stronger among your community 0:09:12.430,0:09:17.740 you're entitled to have everything all the resources everything that you'd wish 0:09:17.740,0:09:22.750 for you would have it just by virtue of your power and your force yeah in our 0:09:22.750,0:09:28.089 modern time it became about armies or about charisma the ability to move large 0:09:28.089,0:09:36.850 masses of people but you always had a way to freeze somebodies accounts even 0:09:36.850,0:09:43.110 in modern times stop people from engaging in trade and commerce and 0:09:43.110,0:09:48.790 basically as long as you have control over somebody's money you cannot say 0:09:48.790,0:09:55.610 that they are completely free exactly is what Bitcoin does by excellence 0:09:55.610,0:10:03.080 yeah Bitcoin is definitely a top a bottom-up system no that means that it 0:10:03.080,0:10:13.430 gives absolute power to the individual and significantly reduces power of any 0:10:13.430,0:10:19.220 larger structures like government state another larger organization institutions 0:10:19.220,0:10:26.660 etc even legal systems if you if you have Bitcoin and and you have your 0:10:26.660,0:10:31.850 private key and you are good with your private key security 0:10:31.850,0:10:39.380 nobody can do nobody can access that that money we're living in a dual world 0:10:39.380,0:10:45.320 now because what we're talking about is individuality and like that now with 0:10:45.320,0:10:53.540 property you can have digital ass is that gonna be confiscated is living 0:10:53.540,0:10:57.650 together because it's just being born in the last ten years it's living together 0:10:57.650,0:11:02.330 with the other model which is that all of our assets are in institutions like 0:11:02.330,0:11:09.320 banks and they're protected by armies and the police and and the legal system 0:11:09.320,0:11:22.430 we we are very used to that with privacy um people are not very conscious that 0:11:22.430,0:11:29.330 their assets are not in their own control they're really in the control of 0:11:29.330,0:11:34.100 third parties and the same thing with with our privacy there's there's like 0:11:34.100,0:11:38.990 something similar happening there we use Google Facebook Amazon Apple 0:11:38.990,0:11:47.600 I don't know Twitter and all these online applications are recording our 0:11:47.600,0:11:51.800 everything we do no they don't III think that at this point they don't even need 0:11:51.800,0:11:58.310 to know our name to know everything I think they even know more about us or 0:11:58.310,0:12:02.030 psychology behavior what we're gonna do tomorrow where we're gonna go on 0:12:02.030,0:12:05.820 vacation because of their analytics much more than us 0:12:05.820,0:12:13.350 so oh yeah in terms of property and privacy the current systems we have we 0:12:13.350,0:12:18.330 have completely delegated because of a false sense of security to these third 0:12:18.330,0:12:22.020 parties and Bitcoin is definitely absolutely yobs 0:12:22.020,0:12:28.500 now with as long as we have our private key and many say that we should also run 0:12:28.500,0:12:35.550 our own nodes who to verify that we're in the right network if it as long as we 0:12:35.550,0:12:40.980 have that that property is totally a different paradigm belongs to us and we 0:12:40.980,0:12:49.650 provide access to others in the old paradigm everything is in the 0:12:49.650,0:12:54.960 institutions and they provide access to us to our own assets that's that's the 0:12:54.960,0:13:02.400 main change of paradigm that I see just and I guess as we both know from the 0:13:02.400,0:13:08.940 philosophy of people like Nick Szabo frost kills very poorly and the more 0:13:08.940,0:13:14.310 people you trust the more likely it is for your little secret or for your 0:13:14.310,0:13:20.610 possession to get compromised in one way or another so the only way to make it is 0:13:20.610,0:13:26.820 to minimize the amount of trust that you give to people or institutions or 0:13:26.820,0:13:33.060 anything that is led by humans yeah computer systems I guess it's better to 0:13:33.060,0:13:41.640 have a minimize for us because as fewer as you have the battery you're off just 0:13:41.640,0:13:47.280 because you don't store your data on too many systems yeah absolutely that the 0:13:47.280,0:13:52.410 way it works now now we are talking we're using zoom everything is going 0:13:52.410,0:13:58.260 through zoom and we don't know if it's being recorded somewhere and then they 0:13:58.260,0:14:05.220 use that information to analyze our recording when when we use Amazon to buy 0:14:05.220,0:14:09.540 stuff everything's being recorded on Amazon when we use Alexa and all those 0:14:09.540,0:14:14.850 home devices any interaction with home devices now between us and the device 0:14:14.850,0:14:18.180 directly each transaction goes to the central 0:14:18.180,0:14:22.740 server the provider and then it comes back to her home and executes the the 0:14:22.740,0:14:29.070 instruction so everything is totally currently delegated or the only systems 0:14:29.070,0:14:36.000 that could be centralized and eliminate or minimize her parties are our block 0:14:36.000,0:14:43.290 chains like Bitcoin you said something about Nick Szabo I yes when he when he 0:14:43.290,0:14:48.330 wrote about social scalability I mean it was that was an incredible like I know 0:14:48.330,0:14:55.490 it called a discovery or insight that he had and and it's a paradox now because 0:14:55.490,0:15:01.709 to to be socially scalable meaning that a system and be distributed to everybody 0:15:01.709,0:15:09.120 in the world or the most people possible you need less people or less social 0:15:09.120,0:15:14.640 prevention in the system itself so that's interesting because it has to do 0:15:14.640,0:15:23.010 with the limit of our brain that I was talking before what he says is that if 0:15:23.010,0:15:28.470 we have systems that I run by humans and need to trust us humans because those 0:15:28.470,0:15:32.730 humans don't have the ability to understand what millions of people are 0:15:32.730,0:15:36.209 doing at the same time because they have limited brains then the rules that they 0:15:36.209,0:15:41.040 impose is basically to exclude everybody and only let in the people that they can 0:15:41.040,0:15:46.529 control know one by one a system that works like that is the American banking 0:15:46.529,0:15:51.810 system with all your custom and that same system has been replicated 0:15:51.810,0:15:56.490 practically all over the world that means that if you want to open an 0:15:56.490,0:16:01.890 account in a bank just because they have these mental limitations they prefer to 0:16:01.890,0:16:07.980 say okay we don't trust so you have to prove to us that you are a good person 0:16:07.980,0:16:12.959 and then we're gonna open your account um and so we have to send your password 0:16:12.959,0:16:18.240 your social security number your driver's license agent address and proof 0:16:18.240,0:16:21.860 of where you live by sending other copies of 0:16:21.860,0:16:29.570 of ility cetera and because of that system a lot of people cannot go through 0:16:29.570,0:16:33.470 that or it's very caustic go through that process and there's a lot of people 0:16:33.470,0:16:37.430 even within the United States there's like 60 million people that are unbanked 0:16:37.430,0:16:43.760 do you guys in this advanced society in Latin America where I come from it's the 0:16:43.760,0:16:48.620 other way around it it's here in America's a twenty percent who are not 0:16:48.620,0:16:55.730 thanked not in America and some some cases it's eighty because of the same 0:16:55.730,0:17:00.710 things because because the banks and the government's cannot control everybody 0:17:00.710,0:17:06.980 because they're powered by the brain by the brains of the official and those 0:17:06.980,0:17:10.190 brains are limited and because they're limited they have to stop everyone and 0:17:10.190,0:17:15.860 only let each one one by one checking them manually and that is not scalable 0:17:15.860,0:17:26.300 social imagine when if we could create a system that is absolutely secure and you 0:17:26.300,0:17:31.420 can trust that it's totally secure but at the same time it's not it's not 0:17:31.420,0:17:36.320 operated by the brains of other people but nodes in a decentralized network 0:17:36.320,0:17:42.050 that K is anybody can practice it because the rules are never going to be 0:17:42.050,0:17:48.110 broken nothing wrong is going to happen a system even if no one with a limited 0:17:48.110,0:17:54.320 brain is controlling so the difference between the traditional systems and and 0:17:54.320,0:18:00.140 these and now new decentralized block chains now that that they totally 0:18:00.140,0:18:06.380 minimize these third parties are so limited and so anybody can use so the 0:18:06.380,0:18:14.390 less social intervention the more socially scalable but as I recall you 0:18:14.390,0:18:19.070 have mentioned a few instances when our privacy is being infringed by 0:18:19.070,0:18:24.830 centralized services and I agree with you that even this conversation that 0:18:24.830,0:18:30.590 we're having might just be recorded on a separate server and they are in charge 0:18:30.590,0:18:35.840 of it and if somebody from the NSA one stitch at the content it 0:18:35.840,0:18:39.830 actually get a copy and record themselves 0:18:39.830,0:18:45.500 hmm we could we could be yeah the the intelligence agent agencies in other in 0:18:45.500,0:18:48.679 this country we are in our countries or other countries could be listening to us 0:18:48.679,0:18:54.230 right now yeah but I'm not sure if we are that interesting right now 0:18:54.230,0:19:00.110 no offence whether that is that is the in a way the false sense of security 0:19:00.110,0:19:04.220 that we all have now we are we are so small and so insignificant that no boots 0:19:04.220,0:19:09.220 so I don't care much about my private property of my privacy 0:19:09.220,0:19:16.580 yeah yeah it's an interesting like analogy what I was going to ask starting 0:19:16.580,0:19:22.250 from that point was do you think that now that we have a form of money which 0:19:22.250,0:19:27.830 has all the qualities of sound money and cannot be confiscated and grants us a 0:19:27.830,0:19:35.149 greater amounts of privacy is this step enough to actually desire for more and 0:19:35.149,0:19:43.460 to enable the whole society to demand for decentralized services or something 0:19:43.460,0:19:49.789 which does not track them and become more cautious about all the services 0:19:49.789,0:19:56.350 that maybe do not work in their best interest in terms of privacy at least 0:19:56.350,0:20:02.830 if it's enough I I think that it for now all these decentralized systems like 0:20:02.830,0:20:09.429 Bitcoin here in here in classic like coin money wrote it down 0:20:09.429,0:20:15.970 they are the answer because they are a bottom-up systems with no central eyes 0:20:15.970,0:20:18.850 control it's Hitler and they are a solution for it 0:20:18.850,0:20:27.130 for money no confiscation property and and also for agreement whether whether 0:20:27.130,0:20:31.629 if that's alone by them just because they exist that that is going to change 0:20:31.629,0:20:35.529 everything I don't know for now only a few million 0:20:35.529,0:20:41.110 people use it now maybe 20 million 30 million very optimistically 50 million 0:20:41.110,0:20:47.350 people but many of those will use intermediaries to access these systems 0:20:47.350,0:20:52.840 for example they use coinbase or violence or other centralized services 0:20:52.840,0:20:59.169 many people use the exchanges as their wallet so it's basically identical as 0:20:59.169,0:21:02.529 the banking system there they're basically putting their crypto you know 0:21:02.529,0:21:08.799 first to third party so so III think that at least or the very early adopters 0:21:08.799,0:21:14.470 it is the solution and in that segment of the world population the these 0:21:14.470,0:21:21.179 systems just by existing is enough to turn around things just as a side note 0:21:21.179,0:21:29.440 right here in classic where I work a lot I I seem a lot of activity from Asia a 0:21:29.440,0:21:38.019 countries like China and and I won South Korea to tasks of conflict and top-down 0:21:38.019,0:21:46.269 control and and and and more arbitrary spawns of government they are very 0:21:46.269,0:21:50.230 interested in in fear in classic for example as opposed to here iam because 0:21:50.230,0:21:56.529 if you're in classic constantly talks about immutability private property the 0:21:56.529,0:22:00.220 not reversing the chain and stuff like that so they are very conscious about 0:22:00.220,0:22:06.429 security at least the communities that are following this in those countries 0:22:06.429,0:22:11.299 but then we have the rest of the 7.5 billion 0:22:11.299,0:22:14.830 in the world that are not very conscious for the reasons that we said before 0:22:14.830,0:22:18.889 they're very used to decentralized system they're used to being protected 0:22:18.889,0:22:25.100 by the government cetera so I think that we need not only for these systems to 0:22:25.100,0:22:31.009 exist but also for trusted third parties to continue to prove that they're not 0:22:31.009,0:22:37.039 trustworthy for example when there is a breach in a bank when there is a breach 0:22:37.039,0:22:44.480 a cable company and they see that they stole everybody's identity when there's 0:22:44.480,0:22:51.649 reach breaches in exchanges like MT GOx and many others that were hacked so so 0:22:51.649,0:22:57.320 maybe to convince the rest of the world to use to migrate to these much more 0:22:57.320,0:23:03.289 secure systems at guarantee privacy and property and agreement maybe we need 0:23:03.289,0:23:09.080 both things not only the existence of the systems themselves and to 0:23:09.080,0:23:14.840 communicate that with marketing etc but also for trusted third parties to 0:23:14.840,0:23:22.519 continue to make mistakes and being hacked and being dishonest to finally 0:23:22.519,0:23:27.100 convince people of what's called 0:23:29.910,0:23:35.710 are you still there yes so you said of what's going on and you 0:23:35.710,0:23:42.070 stopped yeah yes what I was saying is that we need not only Bitcoin to exist 0:23:42.070,0:23:46.930 but also for people to see that they need beat and Bitcoin and and for that 0:23:46.930,0:23:52.630 to see that they need to see that the banks and centralized services are we 0:23:52.630,0:23:57.850 are breaching their security and privacy now this is exactly why we should pay as 0:23:57.850,0:24:02.920 often as we can that unless you own the keys and you store the coins in your own 0:24:02.920,0:24:06.850 wallet then you cannot say that they are your coins 0:24:06.850,0:24:13.360 yes very likely that they will be stolen or they can be frozen and I even know 0:24:13.360,0:24:19.660 people who hold coins on exchanges and they try to withdraw them and they had a 0:24:19.660,0:24:24.460 limit a daily limit and the monthly limit so if they wanted to liquidate 0:24:24.460,0:24:30.880 their accounts and take away everything they had to file the dirt kyc 0:24:30.880,0:24:35.260 requirements and then answer the question why do you want to withdraw it 0:24:35.260,0:24:41.470 and wait for a while so in a sense this business model relies on the idea that 0:24:41.470,0:24:48.220 you most likely don't withdraw ever they try to give you incentives to stay 0:24:48.220,0:24:53.200 faithful to their system and when you do try to withdraw they act as if you're 0:24:53.200,0:24:58.630 doing something very wrong and actually it's so much better to hold it with them 0:24:58.630,0:25:03.940 because they pretend they have great security they say they allow you to make 0:25:03.940,0:25:10.030 instant payments they make all these claims and yeah-eh persuade you one way 0:25:10.030,0:25:14.080 or another or even go as far as blackmailing you emotionally or 0:25:14.080,0:25:18.790 intellectually unless you're determined to say I have my own hardware wallet or 0:25:18.790,0:25:26.110 a secure mobile wallet and I'm going to store the coins in there yeah I think 0:25:26.110,0:25:30.340 that what you said is key that the that they offer instant payments not only a 0:25:30.340,0:25:36.190 lot of marketing for example JP Morgan the last 120 years they have been 0:25:36.190,0:25:39.760 showing their building in New York as a as a sign of 0:25:39.760,0:25:46.330 of Frank and many banks do that that if you see the publicity of Bank fish large 0:25:46.330,0:25:50.860 their large buildings and stuff like that because in our small brains 0:25:50.860,0:26:00.240 unlimited brain we we normally see that as a sign of authority and strength and 0:26:00.240,0:26:06.190 credibility and solvency the the reality is that that building is worth I don't 0:26:06.190,0:26:11.620 know 100 or 200 million dollars or half a million dollars and people have like 0:26:11.620,0:26:14.950 two trillion dollars in JPMorgan so it they're not gonna pay anything but that 0:26:14.950,0:26:24.310 building if something happened but but no so not only not only are we having 0:26:24.310,0:26:29.860 this false feeling of security by having our money in the banking system and 0:26:29.860,0:26:35.770 having our information with the Silicon Valley companies but what you said is 0:26:35.770,0:26:41.880 very interesting they also offer this instant gratification no when I use 0:26:41.880,0:26:51.700 PayPal its immediate so it's high performance I can send one dollar and to 0:26:51.700,0:26:58.450 another PayPal user they only have like a hundred sixty million users I say only 0:26:58.450,0:27:03.730 because the world is 7.5 billion or so paper is not the solution either but but 0:27:03.730,0:27:10.840 would be they do offer this instant gratification and high performance for 0:27:10.840,0:27:18.130 example when when we put our websites on AWS or run our apps and they do run on 0:27:18.130,0:27:23.920 cloud service etc they're much faster when you use hiriam for example adapt on 0:27:23.920,0:27:29.590 aetherium you have to wait for 15 seconds and the money then when you and 0:27:29.590,0:27:36.430 then a transaction or instruction to the tap it takes another another 15 seconds 0:27:36.430,0:27:42.220 not only that for security you should wait for 30 confirmations in classic in 0:27:42.220,0:27:48.220 aetherium or interim classic now it was it was act not hacked but there was 0:27:48.220,0:27:53.230 doubles and access this week so now we're recommending to use 5,000 con for 0:27:53.230,0:27:56.809 me so that means that these decentralized 0:27:56.809,0:28:01.880 systems the other trade-off that nick szabo said that exists related to social 0:28:01.880,0:28:07.460 scalability is to be able to reduce the trusted third party parties and to be 0:28:07.460,0:28:12.380 able to not use the brains of the project third parties are limited we 0:28:12.380,0:28:17.980 need to we need it at all she needed to create this highly inefficient energy 0:28:17.980,0:28:26.000 burning system to make it highly secure that security means inefficiency like I 0:28:26.000,0:28:31.539 said an inefficiency means that these systems are never going to be as fast as 0:28:31.539,0:28:39.230 Amazon Cloud Services or IBM Google Cloud Services or PayPal or apple the 0:28:39.230,0:28:44.990 Apple Store or now and all those systems so that's another thing that is like a 0:28:44.990,0:28:53.059 bribe to us it's going to take a while for us to realize our privacy our 0:28:53.059,0:29:00.260 private property and our agreements have to be highly protected with no trusted 0:29:00.260,0:29:08.210 third parties and for that we're going to have to expect that the secure 0:29:08.210,0:29:14.659 systems are less efficient maybe use a centralized systems for smaller more 0:29:14.659,0:29:23.659 insignificant protection but but yes he the fallacy of the high performance I 0:29:23.659,0:29:29.330 would call it I think it's pretty much the same with all the block chains which 0:29:29.330,0:29:36.139 promised to have quicker transactions faster validations all these features 0:29:36.139,0:29:42.409 which actually are pretty much useless and they pretty much legitimate their 0:29:42.409,0:29:47.570 presence on the market through these features while lacking the exact 0:29:47.570,0:29:52.039 fundamentals which make Bitcoin great but they're not really decentralized 0:29:52.039,0:29:59.049 they're not really permissionless they have a few founders who maybe had huge 0:29:59.049,0:30:07.540 free minds which made them rich yeah it's a physical reality that if a system 0:30:07.540,0:30:12.820 has to be completely decentralized then it has to be more inefficient it cannot 0:30:12.820,0:30:23.830 be as fast as Amazon or PayPal so you you you you said exactly as it exactly 0:30:23.830,0:30:30.850 as it is all these new block chains are doing what was him al Cindy of parallel 0:30:30.850,0:30:37.180 industries calls decentralization decentralization theater which is 0:30:37.180,0:30:41.020 basically they are acting the period decentralized but at the same time 0:30:41.020,0:30:47.760 they're there they're promising the same scalability scaling and performance and 0:30:47.760,0:30:57.640 storage capacity as centralizes the reality is to reach those levels metrics 0:30:57.640,0:31:02.620 you have to be a centralized system so basically they are they are they are 0:31:02.620,0:31:08.980 doing this dual messaging and doing decentralization theater and that's why 0:31:08.980,0:31:15.340 many in the crypto industry industry including me call them scammers because 0:31:15.340,0:31:21.220 they they say okay bitcoin takes six confirmations it's very slow burns 0:31:21.220,0:31:29.920 energy and only does eight interactions per per second my system does a billion 0:31:29.920,0:31:35.140 transactions per second it's proof of stake so it doesn't burn energy and and 0:31:35.140,0:31:39.340 it's super fast and and and you can do high volumes and it's super secure one 0:31:39.340,0:31:48.030 of that it's not possible so either you or you're ignorant or a scammer yeah and 0:31:48.030,0:31:54.910 we should get to a topic which concerns Bitcoin much more because the more we 0:31:54.910,0:32:01.960 get into scam coins and bad project I guess the the less relevance this show 0:32:01.960,0:32:08.410 has to have these important discussions and one of the topics which sometimes I 0:32:08.410,0:32:14.020 approach with people I talk to regards to the so called state of hyper Bitcoin 0:32:14.020,0:32:20.940 ization when you basically have this immutable currency universally 0:32:20.940,0:32:27.450 available and well understood by all of its users and you can use it every 0:32:27.450,0:32:32.070 everywhere that you can imagine it's basically the new standard for 0:32:32.070,0:32:39.000 currencies all over the world and one of the disagreements which I have with them 0:32:39.000,0:32:45.990 regards the idea of where it starts from some say that it starts from the wealthy 0:32:45.990,0:32:50.880 ones in the developed countries who acquire large amounts of Bitcoin and 0:32:50.880,0:32:56.909 from that point onwards demand for a higher adoption well I sometimes think 0:32:56.909,0:33:03.299 that it doesn't make much sense for them to buy much Bitcoin it's actually those 0:33:03.299,0:33:09.450 who need it that will use it more it's people in Venezuela it's people in 0:33:09.450,0:33:15.990 Palestine it's people even the 20% of the Americans who hold no bank account 0:33:15.990,0:33:22.440 they have a greater needs for Bitcoin and everybody else while somebody from 0:33:22.440,0:33:29.280 German email might buy Bitcoin and yet has a speculative asset somebody else 0:33:29.280,0:33:34.890 from Venezuela will just buy it and think this is their way to transact with 0:33:34.890,0:33:40.679 the rest of the world it's their way for them to get engaged in world commerce 0:33:40.679,0:33:47.159 and remain relevant on the market which marginalizes him as a citizen of that 0:33:47.159,0:33:54.299 country which is in a bad political situation so do you think it makes more 0:33:54.299,0:33:59.880 sense for the greater adoption to come from the developed side of the world or 0:33:59.880,0:34:07.580 from those who rise and realize that they actually have a chance to overcome 0:34:07.580,0:34:15.090 their problems and become relevant on the world markets through the simple 0:34:15.090,0:34:21.659 fact that they buy Bitcoin and they can use it or everyday needs 0:34:21.659,0:34:29.460 yeah yeah yeah your your your argument is that big bitcoins promise a promise 0:34:29.460,0:34:36.659 is hard money insecurity and currently people in country in like in North 0:34:36.659,0:34:44.609 American Europe there's no big investors but they live in in regions of the world 0:34:44.609,0:34:50.220 where security and hard money is not such a problem as the other countries 0:34:50.220,0:34:58.980 like Venezuela and the rest of Latin America I would say so so you you what 0:34:58.980,0:35:06.690 you are observing is that it's not very logical 0:35:06.690,0:35:13.290 or HUD lers American Europe have such large amounts of Bitcoin when the real 0:35:13.290,0:35:19.200 use case is in Venezuela with people with with that are poor and they're poor 0:35:19.200,0:35:22.230 because of their top-down government they're socialists it's a Tehran and 0:35:22.230,0:35:26.640 they don't respect their people and their individual rights and their even 0:35:26.640,0:35:32.700 their life some cases and unless their property in agreement there's there 0:35:32.700,0:35:38.520 should be the adoption in the first so in terms of the logic of where the need 0:35:38.520,0:35:44.520 is the distribution of where the need is I totally agree with you that the higher 0:35:44.520,0:35:52.140 need for this is in those areas of the world where our be arbitrary government 0:35:52.140,0:35:57.690 and and society and is it control in that way and property and agreements are 0:35:57.690,0:36:05.160 violated constant however the reality is that physically the way the world works 0:36:05.160,0:36:11.520 is that things start small and it's very costly to make it available to the world 0:36:11.520,0:36:19.940 unless they go in by in steps so like any technology it is first 0:36:19.940,0:36:28.069 adopted by a group that maybe they are more technical or or in the case of 0:36:28.069,0:36:33.839 products that need scale and investment they are adopted first by a group of 0:36:33.839,0:36:39.990 investors who are believers I would say there are the early adopters within 0:36:39.990,0:36:45.630 within the elites in the world now in North America and Europe other places 0:36:45.630,0:36:53.369 where there is very rich people I think that the process for these to bootstrap 0:36:53.369,0:36:59.250 these technologies or new products when they need so much scale to lower the 0:36:59.250,0:37:03.450 cost and make it available to the rest of the world you actually need to go 0:37:03.450,0:37:08.910 through this process where rich people are the first ones to buy it happens 0:37:08.910,0:37:14.460 with it happen per the airline industry in the beginning the the term jet set 0:37:14.460,0:37:18.270 was only for rich people because they were the only ones I could pay 0:37:18.270,0:37:29.040 flying a jet like in the fifties so but today I can fly from Denver to New 0:37:29.040,0:37:33.630 Orleans for 120 dollars sometimes it's 90 dollars depending on what airline I 0:37:33.630,0:37:36.869 use if it's a discount airline or more full service airline 0:37:36.869,0:37:43.589 why can I do that today in 2018 and in 1950 nobody could fly except for the 0:37:43.589,0:37:48.270 elite because we needed this process it is a very costly to put airplanes 0:37:48.270,0:37:52.109 everywhere in the world airports everywhere in the world you will 0:37:52.109,0:37:57.990 distribution everywhere in the world be the first ones to use them and because 0:37:57.990,0:38:01.200 they use it then it's ailes and because it's Kayla and it's 0:38:01.200,0:38:05.520 available to the rest of the world in a low cost the same dynamics applied to 0:38:05.520,0:38:10.619 Bitcoin at the beginning there were ten and a hundred and a thousand but those 0:38:10.619,0:38:16.020 people are the first people who believe in it and they buy it and those are the 0:38:16.020,0:38:23.119 ones that bootstrap it and then when it was worth $1,000 and $10,000 and $20,000 0:38:23.119,0:38:30.089 well yeah the rich people benefit and the first people who owned it in these 0:38:30.089,0:38:36.000 in these countries because they saw it it was available first but it is needed 0:38:36.000,0:38:41.460 to have these elites to have access first my opinion because they bootstrap 0:38:41.460,0:38:49.500 the system once Bitcoin the rest of the world can see that these early adopters 0:38:49.500,0:38:54.450 and rich people are using Bitcoin and they see well it's secure look how it 0:38:54.450,0:38:58.410 works and they see all the information and now and now it has a 10-year history 0:38:58.410,0:39:03.000 and when it has a 15-year history or 20 year history though because of the Lindy 0:39:03.000,0:39:11.460 effect the more it could exist without reaching a security the more the world 0:39:11.460,0:39:15.359 are going to be convinced that it's a secure system and the more distributed 0:39:15.359,0:39:18.780 is going to be at the same time all these rich people are going to use their 0:39:18.780,0:39:23.760 their wealth to create services will apps that they say that are financed 0:39:23.760,0:39:30.760 startups now that's what so I I think that the process is the natural way and 0:39:30.760,0:39:36.160 I don't find that it's illogical that people in North America and Europe who 0:39:36.160,0:39:42.180 are rich and elite are the first ones to have access because thanks to that 0:39:42.180,0:39:47.500 bitcoin expect me to be available in the rest of the world in my opinion there's 0:39:47.500,0:39:52.329 also one argument which I heard and it made sense even though there is no way 0:39:52.329,0:39:59.380 to actually know that bitcoin is the first financial invention ever to reach 0:39:59.380,0:40:06.040 the one-percent elites did not have instant access so at first the ones who 0:40:06.040,0:40:10.480 got into it were geeks and computer scientists who actually saw the 0:40:10.480,0:40:17.410 potential in it and the speculators and the bankers in the ones who owned large 0:40:17.410,0:40:23.920 amounts of fiat money actually got in at a later phase and they do not own such a 0:40:23.920,0:40:32.619 large percentage hmm I don't know who owns how much but but 0:40:32.619,0:40:36.940 it doesn't surprise me what you're describing because bitcoin is very very 0:40:36.940,0:40:42.130 unique because when the internet came for example when I when I started to 0:40:42.130,0:40:46.839 follow the internet in in the mid 90s and then TOCOM boom and I started the 0:40:46.839,0:40:51.990 company etc it was just the technology it would practically free to use 0:40:51.990,0:40:57.220 what-what demanded an investment and what we hated the upside was to actually 0:40:57.220,0:41:02.290 create a start-up and with shares that we own shares me and my investors own 0:41:02.290,0:41:07.510 shares and if that startup were to be successful then the shares would go up 0:41:07.510,0:41:13.030 but the technology itself didn't have any economic internal intrinsic economic 0:41:13.030,0:41:19.510 value other than what it's enabled now for the startup to capture that value in 0:41:19.510,0:41:25.210 the case of Bitcoin is very unique also I think maybe a new paradigm where the 0:41:25.210,0:41:33.369 protocol itself depends on a token and that token goes up in value so the 0:41:33.369,0:41:38.950 technology has the value in internally intrinsic to the to the token a even 0:41:38.950,0:41:42.750 part of the design without the token it doesn't work 0:41:42.750,0:41:47.220 and without the token going up in value it doesn't work either because you need 0:41:47.220,0:41:51.990 you need the value to go up so that more miners coming and and the miners create 0:41:51.990,0:41:55.829 more security and because it's more secure then people can use it in 0:41:55.829,0:42:00.930 Venezuela and there's more demand so the price goes up but more miners come in 0:42:00.930,0:42:05.670 and and that that's the cycle now so that that's a change in part or the the 0:42:05.670,0:42:09.900 unique paradigm that these protocols have and Bitcoin in particular which 0:42:09.900,0:42:15.540 they have to have their token first and so going back to what you described 0:42:15.540,0:42:21.599 if the technologists were the first ones who have Bitcoin and I like Alpini 0:42:21.599,0:42:27.540 principle that that's amazing because there was an overlap in that case the 0:42:27.540,0:42:34.349 tech geeks and their cyber punks who not necessarily are rich they just mined it 0:42:34.349,0:42:38.339 and they had a hundred thousand I don't know half a million in the case of 0:42:38.339,0:42:45.089 Satoshi some people say that he has a million bitcoins and maybe and maybe 0:42:45.089,0:42:49.140 they were there they were and maybe they are still just geeks and they're not 0:42:49.140,0:42:54.660 really interested in the money they were interested in the technology but then 0:42:54.660,0:42:58.619 there at the overlap this this second group of people who say wait this thing 0:42:58.619,0:43:06.300 was worth one cent ten years ago and now it's worth $4,000 wow there's something 0:43:06.300,0:43:10.290 here so they're coming in late however they still have a lot of money though so 0:43:10.290,0:43:16.319 they can buy a lot anyway no they can they can buy I think four million 0:43:16.319,0:43:22.380 dollars they can buy out big reason yeah but that's not still the same yeah years 0:43:22.380,0:43:26.490 ago if you wanted to mined bitcoins you'd get I think the block reward was 0:43:26.490,0:43:33.329 50 bitcoins yeah and it was quite easy you could do it with your computer 0:43:33.329,0:43:44.390 processor yeah no GPUs no way six hardly any cost in electricity 4,000 bitcoins 0:43:44.500,0:43:58.270 / 50 20 blocks in 20 blocks if you mind 20 blocks you would have a bit yeah I 0:43:58.270,0:44:05.320 guess at the time you had to be either very idealistic or actually understand 0:44:05.320,0:44:10.869 the technology and even today if you make me read the white paper I can 0:44:10.869,0:44:16.359 understand the ideas behind it but the mathematics and or the computer science 0:44:16.359,0:44:22.300 part where it describes the hashes and how data is written into blocks that's 0:44:22.300,0:44:27.760 too much for me yeah why no what I what I say about that is that bitcoin is 0:44:27.760,0:44:35.640 first about out human behavior and evolutionary game theory in biology and 0:44:35.640,0:44:43.950 geography and engineering second how would you define Bitcoin as a biological 0:44:43.950,0:44:53.700 invention when again going back to the humans three million years ago 0:44:54.980,0:45:00.530 first all these ideas they started in my mind because because because of working 0:45:00.530,0:45:06.080 with and reading nick szabo no nick szabo wrote Nick Szabo is a brilliant 0:45:06.080,0:45:12.590 person not only not only because of what he has written etcetera but the way he 0:45:12.590,0:45:16.610 thinks within the cypherpunks I think he must 0:45:16.610,0:45:21.740 have been a very unique member of the cypherpunks because the way he thinks is 0:45:21.740,0:45:28.880 that for example with when Cham and in Maywood talk about money in the case of 0:45:28.880,0:45:35.840 chairman privacy and liberty and to creating a space for liberty online 0:45:35.840,0:45:42.080 using cryptography Nick instead of saying ok I like those ideas and working 0:45:42.080,0:45:48.500 on top of them normally what he does is he says I like those ideas I am going to 0:45:48.500,0:45:53.660 read history human history I'm gonna research how human behavior works 0:45:53.660,0:46:00.350 ethnography biology etc and why privacy is important in the first place and the 0:46:00.350,0:46:05.780 history in that in the last thousand years and why property is important and 0:46:05.780,0:46:13.400 why agreements is important he even went to college in in the 2000s like in 2005 0:46:13.400,0:46:20.620 2006 he went to colleges to study law just to understand contracts more more 0:46:20.620,0:46:26.120 to understand contracts more to be able to come back I can to keep on a design 0:46:26.120,0:46:29.750 inspired contracts and all that so that way of thinking and that dedication that 0:46:29.750,0:46:35.660 he's he has is incredible so from there that attitude and when I read when I 0:46:35.660,0:46:40.970 read a shelling out where he explains money where he did all of these I just 0:46:40.970,0:46:45.640 probably did all this and he said ok John says that we need online money and 0:46:45.640,0:46:49.670 privacy I read everything about money and the history of money and now I 0:46:49.670,0:46:58.750 understand why and this is the shelling out the origin of money in that in that 0:46:58.819,0:47:07.249 now going back to why I think big in that paper shelling out Nick not only 0:47:07.249,0:47:13.219 talks about money for I was formally fined by economists but then he goes 0:47:13.219,0:47:20.449 further and he said and he and he goes in history to see how money was used in 0:47:20.449,0:47:26.959 the past by our ancestors in the last 10,000 years he studies ethnography so 0:47:26.959,0:47:32.949 he goes he go local tribes from original information 0:47:32.949,0:47:39.739 for example the Europe in in Northern California how they use money thousands 0:47:39.739,0:47:46.239 of years ago it was shell money they I think they're called in teens of them 0:47:46.239,0:47:50.839 something like guys it's a special hell that they got from further north and 0:47:50.839,0:47:58.429 Ireland in in in front of Hoover and then he studied prehistory because if it 0:47:58.429,0:48:04.459 money today is yet and before was gold and before was shells then if you go 0:48:04.459,0:48:08.599 keep going backwards doing the regression analysis you're gonna read 0:48:08.599,0:48:14.749 reach a point where where the origin was and and Nick found that in for example 0:48:14.749,0:48:18.829 in North America when the Europeans came they were using wampum which was his 0:48:18.829,0:48:25.729 belt and in in South America the Incas they were using clothing and and in in 0:48:25.729,0:48:35.900 in Africa they were and Middle East and I know they were using like Flint's know 0:48:35.900,0:48:42.319 like knives and points made of stone and and and when he saw that he said okay 0:48:42.319,0:48:48.130 money is about trust minimization if economists say that money is used to 0:48:48.130,0:48:55.579 instead of art to change money or a product and before that money was a 0:48:55.579,0:49:02.029 commodity I can see that it planes shells salt and all these forms of money 0:49:02.029,0:49:06.740 were commodities away and you 0:49:06.740,0:49:15.390 as many there is a connection there and and in a regression then after that he I 0:49:15.390,0:49:20.850 know then what he said is then this is about trust at the same time he studied 0:49:20.850,0:49:26.970 that the the brain is limited and we only have capacity to have trust trust 0:49:26.970,0:49:33.090 full relationship between a hundred and fifty people more or less 150 people 0:49:33.090,0:49:40.020 that means that groups in the past when they reached idiot act with larger 0:49:40.020,0:49:45.510 groups or other groups they were normally not trusted so evidently they 0:49:45.510,0:49:51.570 must have used money as a bridge between the two untrusting groups because money 0:49:51.570,0:49:56.880 settled the transactions immediately and the Union he didn't need any trust so 0:49:56.880,0:50:01.560 that's how I think Nick came to the conclusion that money was a trust 0:50:01.560,0:50:08.400 minimization device and that I think already was parallel to things that he 0:50:08.400,0:50:12.840 had already studied which was that in computer systems and what type of banks 0:50:12.840,0:50:17.490 were trying to do is to actually reduce the influence of the trusted party so 0:50:17.490,0:50:21.510 there was a link between money and trusted third parties money is a device 0:50:21.510,0:50:26.880 to reduce trust in others cryptography and decentralized computing is a device 0:50:26.880,0:50:33.900 to reduce first in others the security hole are the trusted third party how is 0:50:33.900,0:50:41.940 it linked to biology in the same paper Nick does a citation of Richard Dawkins 0:50:41.940,0:50:49.160 and his explanation of recipie reciprocal altruism in social animals 0:50:49.160,0:50:55.680 and that means that when an animal does something for the other it is studied 0:50:55.680,0:50:59.310 and confirmed and it's a fact that it's because they have the expectation that 0:50:59.310,0:51:04.590 other one is going to do something for them and the payoff in the long term is 0:51:04.590,0:51:15.140 that their genes are going to be more successful in the future on average so 0:51:15.140,0:51:22.920 this is connected to our biology because evidently in the past at some point in 0:51:22.920,0:51:28.050 the past when we we don't see that animals use money only humans use money 0:51:28.050,0:51:35.190 so we were we were interacting in two groups but we in device to interact in 0:51:35.190,0:51:38.610 with other groups because we didn't we didn't share genes so there was no 0:51:38.610,0:51:41.070 interest we actually wanted the other groups to disappear 0:51:41.070,0:51:50.550 because they were competitors so it is very possible that when we created the 0:51:50.550,0:51:56.270 first stone tools 3.3 million years ago this is my theory now 0:51:56.500,0:52:04.270 we felt value we evolved in our brains the capacity to feel subjective value 0:52:04.270,0:52:12.550 for those tools not only because of their physical use or functional use but 0:52:12.550,0:52:19.240 also extra value just holding them and for their shape for example because of 0:52:19.240,0:52:25.990 that subjective feeling of value for tools that we evolved and the others 0:52:25.990,0:52:34.390 also evolved in time when when Alice meets Bob three million years ago and 0:52:34.390,0:52:40.619 they didn't trust each other but Alice had meet and Bob didn't have anything 0:52:40.619,0:52:45.579 Alice would say hey but in your head in your hand you have a stone tool maybe 0:52:45.579,0:52:49.319 you can give me your stone tool and I'll give you the meat that you need if not 0:52:49.319,0:52:53.589 I'm not going to do anything with you because I don't trust you that you're 0:52:53.589,0:52:58.450 going to reciprocate and you don't have my genes so I'm not interested in your 0:52:58.450,0:53:07.119 genes being perpetuated so so maybe at that point the other one said ok I'll 0:53:07.119,0:53:11.020 give you my stone tool and he gave me the meat that I was enabled and that was 0:53:11.020,0:53:16.450 the first time probably the money was used you know in a very archaic way and 0:53:16.450,0:53:20.920 that's the connection to our biology in terms of biologists because we evolved 0:53:20.920,0:53:28.770 genetically who feel subjected value for objects other than their function and 0:53:28.770,0:53:33.819 then the connection to money is that they they were used once we felt that 0:53:33.819,0:53:42.130 subjective value we would accept that to cancel a debt immediately so we would 0:53:42.130,0:53:46.940 use it in exchange for other things I don't know if 0:53:46.940,0:53:53.150 too confusing now this is actually fascinating and I don't think even 0:53:53.150,0:53:58.190 though I've read the article by Nick's table I don't think I taught about it in 0:53:58.190,0:54:03.710 these terms mm-hmm I guess this outline of all the 0:54:03.710,0:54:07.910 ideas because as you know the articles are pretty long and sometimes it's easy 0:54:07.910,0:54:13.430 to get lost in the ideas or maybe yeah or a while and just think about it yeah 0:54:13.430,0:54:18.500 I always say I always say and I tell Nick that I have to read his articles 0:54:18.500,0:54:23.450 like 30 times because there's so much information in each page in each 0:54:23.450,0:54:28.280 paragraph and and I tell other people that it's great to read Nick Szabo's 0:54:28.280,0:54:33.380 articles because one article is like six months of university courses they have 0:54:33.380,0:54:39.829 so much information oh yes and in a way that's the advantage of quality reading 0:54:39.829,0:54:44.240 if you find something which is filled with information and you have the power 0:54:44.240,0:54:49.930 to process it I don't think I don't think it's easy to read something gonji 0:54:49.930,0:54:57.680 unenumerated is blog but once you get at least to understand some important 0:54:57.680,0:55:03.079 concepts at first when I discovered it I was overwhelmed a lot of people in the 0:55:03.079,0:55:08.420 space they like to brag about how they read it and how they were influenced and 0:55:08.420,0:55:14.210 how it makes sense to them and they understood the ideas and they applied it 0:55:14.210,0:55:19.640 to some project that they are working on yeah but when I first discovered it it 0:55:19.640,0:55:26.150 was overwhelming yeah it's not just like an everyday blog where you find short 0:55:26.150,0:55:31.359 those which outlined the ideas in plain language the way anyone can understand 0:55:31.359,0:55:36.920 it's actually pretty scientific it actually makes you wonder why was this 0:55:36.920,0:55:42.520 not published in some kind of scholar journal because I've read academic 0:55:42.520,0:55:51.020 papers which are much much worse and void of any meaning they just use the 0:55:51.020,0:55:55.400 scientific lingo and jargon to just sound smart 0:55:55.400,0:55:59.930 but they don't yeah they any finger substance they just repeat that the 0:55:59.930,0:56:02.249 buzzword like trust minimization social 0:56:02.249,0:56:10.819 scalability and stuff like that Unforgiven scarcity unforgeable 0:56:10.819,0:56:16.829 costliness and other and other terms and Nick uses or trusted third parties are 0:56:16.829,0:56:23.130 security holes many terminology that Nick has created and uses in blog posts 0:56:23.130,0:56:27.869 and papers yes a lot of people use them just just to give the impression that 0:56:27.869,0:56:35.430 they are deep deeply knowledgeable of what Nick rights and and blockchain in 0:56:35.430,0:56:44.190 general like using blockchain as a term in itself or AI we the normal humans we 0:56:44.190,0:56:50.099 like to use like these things as first words to for personal marketing or 0:56:50.099,0:56:55.579 marketing of our projects yeah but I agree with you they that doesn't miss it 0:56:55.579,0:57:02.220 they actually either understand in some cases or either believe also in the 0:57:02.220,0:57:09.869 principle yeah in my case I I don't I can't claim that I understand but I can 0:57:09.869,0:57:17.269 claim that what I understand from not only from nick szabo but from tim may 0:57:17.269,0:57:26.369 with whom i had a lot of interaction in the last three years Elaine oh another 0:57:26.369,0:57:34.680 thinker al Feeny Wade I when you read all these things from on cypherpunks 0:57:34.680,0:57:39.239 it's incredibly and I read them many times sometimes the same thing many 0:57:39.239,0:57:43.739 times for example a Toshi nakamoto's bacon paper I read it at least 30 times 0:57:43.739,0:57:51.900 and and what I do just as a certain personal methodology when when I find a 0:57:51.900,0:57:58.589 point that I don't understand that's where I go and I turn into this amateur 0:57:58.589,0:58:04.650 scientist and I start doing the research by myself so so Nichkhun in a when when 0:58:04.650,0:58:09.779 when it talks when he talks about money he talks about millennia thousands of 0:58:09.779,0:58:14.230 years and stuff like that and he talks about Pacific orange so 0:58:14.230,0:58:19.440 money that are proven to have been used as money know like points Flint's salt 0:58:19.440,0:58:27.630 black pepper wampum in in North America these shells in Northern California 0:58:27.630,0:58:33.819 etcetera he proves everything and he uses papers and he cites papers etc to 0:58:33.819,0:58:43.059 the speculative area and and I went and I am currently speculating that the 0:58:43.059,0:58:49.410 first it's down tools were used were created 3.3 million years ago 0:58:49.410,0:58:55.359 it's called the low make we know make we industry and maybe those four very 0:58:55.359,0:59:03.640 rudimentary were only used as as as for their function no for cutting for 0:59:03.640,0:59:09.460 breaking bones of animals so they could eat the thing in the middle I don't 0:59:09.460,0:59:16.900 remember the name in English and and and or eating more meat which helped us 0:59:16.900,0:59:23.109 increase our brain therefore live in larger groups which later led to this 0:59:23.109,0:59:32.170 world with huge scientists but I think that later 0:59:32.170,0:59:38.859 Homo habilis that worm was was like 2.3 million years ago the tools that they 0:59:38.859,0:59:43.089 made were much more elaborate they're called e although one industry 0:59:43.089,0:59:49.779 and you can see that the shape and the aesthetics of the tools are not only for 0:59:49.779,0:59:55.359 cutting in my opinion and when homo and then Homo erectus like one point I one 0:59:55.359,0:59:59.470 point eight million years ago they created another industry called the 0:59:59.470,1:00:04.690 Australian industry which is incredible incredibly sophisticated because they 1:00:04.690,1:00:11.920 did by face is that of one place they worked Rock much more he instead of just 1:00:11.920,1:00:16.900 cutting blinked and using the the edge of the Flint to cut they they actually 1:00:16.900,1:00:21.520 created incredible shapes when you see on you can google as surely an industry 1:00:21.520,1:00:27.510 you can see many any of these tools and they made huge amounts of them and 1:00:27.510,1:00:32.970 not only that they went to special places to make them they had like 1:00:32.970,1:00:38.700 division like an economy I would say there were specific places where they 1:00:38.700,1:00:43.740 got special rock for their for their tools it seems that they were highly 1:00:43.740,1:00:49.230 specialized some groups of Homo erectus were highly specialized they got the 1:00:49.230,1:00:55.530 stones they the raw stone they worked it they cut them into cores from the core 1:00:55.530,1:01:00.390 they cut that and and they created the Eshoo lien tools when you see them the 1:01:00.390,1:01:07.070 images they are incredible very very beautiful they made a lot of quantities 1:01:07.070,1:01:12.870 in the places where they made them you don't find bones or anything else other 1:01:12.870,1:01:22.260 than that they made them however they spread in the regions you have ashes of 1:01:22.260,1:01:28.530 stone sometimes they find up to 200 stones and use of these stone tools I 1:01:28.530,1:01:32.990 mean when I say stones I mean yeah Julian tools all stacked together 1:01:32.990,1:01:38.340 organized because there was a Roshan or earthquake yeah but they're all together 1:01:38.340,1:01:45.150 in one place as if it was a bank in my that's what I speculate means that they 1:01:45.150,1:01:49.980 made them in one place somehow they got to the hands of other groups I don't 1:01:49.980,1:01:56.820 think it was the same groups and put them in different places - in stashes as 1:01:56.820,1:02:00.510 if they were like a treasure and they never used them that means to me that 1:02:00.510,1:02:05.480 it's similar to golden Bitcoin you put them in a vault or in a very safe place 1:02:05.480,1:02:12.990 and just keep it there and and and some of them in other places like cage etc 1:02:12.990,1:02:17.400 you can see that the tools were used and you find them together with bones and 1:02:17.400,1:02:21.750 stuff like that so it seems some anthropologists are noticing that 1:02:21.750,1:02:27.930 there's like a cycle of the life cycle of these tools where they went from one 1:02:27.930,1:02:32.340 place into another place they were stored then they were used in another 1:02:32.340,1:02:37.710 place but when they were used they only find two or three they don't find 500 1:02:37.710,1:02:44.430 200 or 150 so that seems to me if when I extrapolate what I read from Nick and 1:02:44.430,1:02:49.380 what he discovered of the history of money and all the all this connection to 1:02:49.380,1:02:54.030 biology that maybe it's not only fifty thousand one hundred thousand or twenty 1:02:54.030,1:03:00.839 thousand years old maybe money is three million years old or at least with Homo 1:03:00.839,1:03:07.980 erectus 1.8 million years old so that's what I'm doing you know you have them 1:03:07.980,1:03:13.589 quite peculiar fascinations which are even more fascinating when you share 1:03:13.589,1:03:22.020 them and you talk about them and I like the concise and compress way in which it 1:03:22.020,1:03:27.480 was presented I guess not many people who listen to this podcast will actually 1:03:27.480,1:03:32.400 go and read the articles but that's fine at least after they have listened to it 1:03:32.400,1:03:37.770 they they will have learned something new yes absolutely 1:03:37.770,1:03:44.910 I recommend people if they're interested in going even further back I'm not 1:03:44.910,1:03:49.170 saying that the Nick doesn't think this maybe he thinks it but as a scientist I 1:03:49.170,1:03:53.580 think that he only writes what he can prove actually and he can reference to I 1:03:53.580,1:03:59.430 am I am free to speculate and write all these things that I do and and on social 1:03:59.430,1:04:03.540 media is speculative explanations because I'm not a scientist and I don't 1:04:03.540,1:04:09.390 I don't want to pretend that I that I am a someone that has everything everything 1:04:09.390,1:04:14.160 proven just my my mind when I read all of these papers from anthropologists and 1:04:14.160,1:04:23.130 ethnographers and then when I see their studies of own tools in the past and in 1:04:23.130,1:04:28.410 parallel when you see all the Anthropology of the evolution of Homo 1:04:28.410,1:04:34.020 now starting with a Lupita whose appearances and then Homo habilis and in 1:04:34.020,1:04:40.980 Homo erectus which was they were alive or between 1.8 and 100 thousand years 1:04:40.980,1:04:45.780 ago so it was a very successful variation of our species and then Homo 1:04:45.780,1:04:51.079 heidelbergensis and that that line gave rise to 1:04:51.079,1:04:56.489 Neanderthals and Homo sapiens III when I the more I read and the more I 1:04:56.489,1:05:02.910 associated with NYX Hubble's writings the more I see that a system like 1:05:02.910,1:05:11.489 Bitcoin is totally related and totally analogous to all of the human behavior 1:05:11.489,1:05:16.019 in the last three million years maybe I'm doing the connections like 1:05:16.019,1:05:21.209 artificially in my mind but I actually I actually go point by point I read papers 1:05:21.209,1:05:24.749 I watch videos I mean all these anthropologists they're all over YouTube 1:05:24.749,1:05:30.329 because they are National Geographic incredible people incredible scientists 1:05:30.329,1:05:36.989 and then the other line of reading that I do is to confirm everything with 1:05:36.989,1:05:45.359 biology as well when I went when when I when I say biology I mean genetics 1:05:45.359,1:05:51.150 I read for example the book Origin of Species by Charles Darwin and then I 1:05:51.150,1:05:56.880 read The Selfish Gene by by Richard Dawkins those two books I recommend 1:05:56.880,1:06:01.609 everybody to use because they they provide the full 1:06:04.460,1:06:09.980 is a fact and Darwin gave the top-down explanation of his observations in the 1:06:09.980,1:06:16.070 1800s and Charles Dakin explained bottom up how evolution works from the genes 1:06:16.070,1:06:20.870 from the level of the genes and then there's another author called an 1:06:20.870,1:06:27.890 scientist called John Maynard Smith that he died in early 2000 I think 2004 but 1:06:27.890,1:06:35.060 he wrote a paper all the logic of animal conflict where he where I found the 1:06:35.060,1:06:41.840 connection with biology in the sense that he found and he was the first the 1:06:41.840,1:06:47.330 person who invented or he connected game theory and he transformed him he 1:06:47.330,1:06:53.480 transformed it into evolutionary game theory is incredible and very useful to 1:06:53.480,1:06:59.270 analyze and model assists but what he realized is that when two when two 1:06:59.270,1:07:06.710 rivals in the same species in social animals would encounter each other even 1:07:06.710,1:07:09.860 though they hated each other they didn't trust each other and they had the tools 1:07:09.860,1:07:16.640 like the jaw the fangs etc to kill each other they don't they didn't fight they 1:07:16.640,1:07:22.430 would find each other they do maybe they would do some hack some some acting out 1:07:22.430,1:07:27.740 of aggression and then they will they would leave and that was a puzzle in in 1:07:27.740,1:07:35.060 biology and what he discovered is that territory devices like territory or who 1:07:35.060,1:07:41.330 came first or who's larger and who's smaller were conflict minimization 1:07:41.330,1:07:46.880 devices and here but that in that paper and and you can see videos of him I mean 1:07:46.880,1:07:53.600 YouTube all the logic about the logic of animal conflict so he solved the puzzle 1:07:53.600,1:07:59.270 because he said ok if to bear two male bears are fighting for the same resource 1:07:59.270,1:08:06.830 would be a female or it could be food and they encounter each other they have 1:08:06.830,1:08:11.120 a tool why don't they actually fight and one kills the other and get the female 1:08:11.120,1:08:18.980 or get the resource well it's because today first it is very costly for both 1:08:18.980,1:08:24.690 to engage in that fight so even if you win and the other one dies a new win you 1:08:24.690,1:08:30.299 still may have lost a lot of or incur dinner in a very high cost just by 1:08:30.299,1:08:34.859 fighting and a risk to your life and with the wounds and all that just to get 1:08:34.859,1:08:40.560 whatever payoff you were you were looking for so that best the first part 1:08:40.560,1:08:44.430 of the logic the second part of the logic is then how do you break the 1:08:44.430,1:08:49.529 symmetry if if two bears encounter and they're competing for the same resource 1:08:49.529,1:08:57.779 what decides who wins and he discovered that for example if if one of the Bears 1:08:57.779,1:09:01.620 was there first in all of the cases or the great 1:09:01.620,1:09:06.839 majority of the case is the one who came second would be the one that loses in 1:09:06.839,1:09:12.230 other species is just territory when one when one when one individual comes and 1:09:12.230,1:09:17.310 realizes there's a resource but realizes at the same time that it's already a 1:09:17.310,1:09:24.150 marked area to buy another equivalent or similar individual the one that is not 1:09:24.150,1:09:30.480 the owner of the territory leaves so that was for me incredible an incredible 1:09:30.480,1:09:35.370 finding because that explains money and that explains private property for 1:09:35.370,1:09:44.310 example in in in between humans why why don't I go why don't I go in front to to 1:09:44.310,1:09:48.960 my neighbor's house and steal their beer for example if I want beer well because 1:09:48.960,1:09:52.470 first I'm going to incur it in a cost because the other guy is also going to 1:09:52.470,1:09:57.030 hit me back now and the other one is because my brain has evolved to accept 1:09:57.030,1:10:02.000 private property as a complication device 1:10:02.599,1:10:08.989 if you extend that you reach to a point where we evolved to use money as a 1:10:08.989,1:10:15.380 conflict minimization device the reason why I go to a store and instead of 1:10:15.380,1:10:20.630 stealing I gave them money is because it's much less costly for me and for a 1:10:20.630,1:10:23.570 store owner to engage in that kind of transaction 1:10:23.570,1:10:28.460 than be stealing from each other all the time so that's that's what I recommend 1:10:28.460,1:10:32.980 to read all these things and that's the connection of biology that I do that's 1:10:32.980,1:10:38.599 extremely fascinating and when you think about it Bitcoin uses a similar game 1:10:38.599,1:10:43.550 theory which I think that's the revolutionary part because I guess the 1:10:43.550,1:10:48.980 programming and the underlying protocol is not so difficult in terms of computer 1:10:48.980,1:10:54.110 science or at least though I heard because I'm not one to evaluate this I 1:10:54.110,1:10:59.119 don't have the competence but the true innovation which came with it was this 1:10:59.119,1:11:07.219 situation in which every participant had much more to win if he or she was to 1:11:07.219,1:11:12.860 play by the rules of the system than to actually try so this is a resolution or 1:11:12.860,1:11:20.000 a way in which the Eisenstein problem the problem of the Byzantine generals 1:11:20.000,1:11:26.869 got solved mm-hmm yes yeah the the Byzantine generals problem was solved 1:11:26.869,1:11:30.020 because proof of proof of work proves that the whole network worked at the 1:11:30.020,1:11:34.070 same time in the same message because it's the only way that message could be 1:11:34.070,1:11:39.050 created because probabilistically if only three generals were working they 1:11:39.050,1:11:43.040 would take much more than 10 minutes but the cypherpunks 1:11:43.040,1:11:49.489 I mean III what you said before that bitcoin is exactly all this all these 1:11:49.489,1:11:56.800 things I totally believe in that I think that bitcoin is first about anthropology 1:11:56.800,1:12:05.270 biology conflict minimization economic behavior evolution game theory it's all 1:12:05.270,1:12:10.010 those things first and then cyber punks were so brilliant that they implemented 1:12:10.010,1:12:15.290 everything using cryptography and they're so brilliant they take that 1:12:15.290,1:12:20.990 for example and using nick szabo and healthy knee as his influence 1:12:20.990,1:12:25.700 they created Bitcoin replicating all these things and I think that they 1:12:25.700,1:12:29.450 basically replicated human behavior of the last at least three million years 1:12:29.450,1:12:35.420 and not only that but it's successful bitcoin it's if you think about it it's 1:12:35.420,1:12:41.240 just a an input a number in some electronic place it doesn't have any 1:12:41.240,1:12:46.880 intrinsic value it's just something that we value because it was very costly to 1:12:46.880,1:12:54.650 make and it is very scarce yes and therefore we can use it just as a stone 1:12:54.650,1:13:00.170 tool three million years ago or just asphalt a thousand years ago in in Italy 1:13:00.170,1:13:08.210 or maybe just as black pepper in India or as a as this special woven close it 1:13:08.210,1:13:13.220 with the Incas to exchange it based the other person also values that because 1:13:13.220,1:13:16.400 it's a conflict minimization device because a unit that you can move it 1:13:16.400,1:13:23.840 between people cancel trust so you don't need trust and gain products from that 1:13:23.840,1:13:28.430 in a much less costly way than going fighting everywhere like James today 1:13:28.430,1:13:31.930 when you panic and you see 1:13:32.840,1:13:38.270 today they still have the old model they only live in very small groups up to 50 1:13:38.270,1:13:45.350 or 60 or 70 and to interact with other groups they only kill each other or they 1:13:45.350,1:13:49.190 are separated but there's no trading there's no favors there's not only oh 1:13:49.190,1:13:56.180 all those things reciprocity protection a grooming etc it's all within the group 1:13:56.180,1:14:01.210 they never do it outside of the group I think that our our invention as humans 1:14:01.210,1:14:08.660 we have in this case the back 4 million years ago was first bipedalism to stand 1:14:08.660,1:14:15.530 up and then I think that it's the other way around or our brains are big because 1:14:15.530,1:14:22.760 it's proof that there was a pressure to act in larger groups people say it the 1:14:22.760,1:14:27.530 other way around they say that first I'm big and then we 1:14:27.530,1:14:32.060 could interact in larger groups I think it's the other way around the pressure 1:14:32.060,1:14:36.950 was because we need it survive we needed to interact in larger groups and that's 1:14:36.950,1:14:43.640 why the brain had to grow and that's why we needed to eat because when when you 1:14:43.640,1:14:48.260 are vegetarian those these like changes data they need huge gut and huge stomach 1:14:48.260,1:14:54.440 and smaller brain because the brain uses a lot of energy so we had to admit just 1:14:54.440,1:15:00.350 to enable our brain to be bigger and our brain had to be bigger because we needed 1:15:00.350,1:15:06.530 two interacting groups if not we would die you're making me feel bad right now 1:15:06.530,1:15:13.430 for being a vegetarian yeah why not that what I just told you is the basis 1:15:13.430,1:15:19.040 for a lot of carnivores in in the Bitcoin space and Bitcoin Bitcoin 1:15:19.040,1:15:24.020 maximalism but I don't think that they do all those connections I what they're 1:15:24.020,1:15:28.640 doing is that they're just pragmatically saying yes we evolved to eat meat meat 1:15:28.640,1:15:36.500 is safe to eat and very healthy okay so when I think about this situation what's 1:15:36.500,1:15:43.469 at oceanic stable I think about the situation that we had with 1:15:43.469,1:15:49.530 mutant and light myths they both had similar discoveries in different parts 1:15:49.530,1:15:54.719 of the world we don't know if Satoshi is American or Japanese or from know any 1:15:54.719,1:16:01.710 other part but one ended up becoming famous and getting cited and being the 1:16:01.710,1:16:07.800 symbol of innovation whereas the other ended up just being there and I feel 1:16:07.800,1:16:15.360 like MMX people God God you know the worst deal of the situation because his 1:16:15.360,1:16:21.660 implementation of bitgold which I'm not sure if it ever worked but it was so 1:16:21.660,1:16:27.800 similar and that he was so close to achieving the same technological prowess 1:16:27.800,1:16:32.790 mm-hmm somebody else just took all that study 1:16:32.790,1:16:37.410 and all that research and put into practice something which maybe was 1:16:37.410,1:16:45.739 obvious to an outside observer yeah I don't know if I were him I'd be furious 1:16:45.739,1:16:52.080 yeah I know and I see okay with the idea that somebody else did it my observation 1:16:52.080,1:16:55.860 is that Nick is extremely supportive of Bitcoin and blockchain in general they 1:16:55.860,1:16:59.790 keeps all the goals that he had he had been working on all the cypherpunks for 1:16:59.790,1:17:07.020 30 years and even though I had different assignment but a toe she liked all 1:17:07.020,1:17:14.010 cypherpunks and any good scientists they credit always they're there they're the 1:17:14.010,1:17:20.150 people who came before them now and the people who created the systems that 1:17:20.150,1:17:26.940 preceded them know so Satoshi formally said that he was inspired by a bit hold 1:17:26.940,1:17:32.449 of Nick Szabo and our pal our POWs by Hal Feeny 1:17:32.449,1:17:39.030 and in the white paper he also credited Adam back who created the proof of work 1:17:39.030,1:17:45.900 system which is the central key I think and then he credited Wade I who had 1:17:45.900,1:17:54.100 written in 1999 in a similar system as Bitcoin Oh with notes and ledger and 1:17:54.100,1:17:59.400 why don't we know so much about Wadeye I 1:17:59.820,1:18:05.620 think that I don't know I never thought about that but I think that he's very 1:18:05.620,1:18:11.860 reserved he doesn't want to appear in many places and participate in the 1:18:11.860,1:18:16.510 community I don't know if he even uses Bitcoin for example when when I used to 1:18:16.510,1:18:22.540 interact and in May he sometimes he he said that he hated become not really 1:18:22.540,1:18:26.700 that he hated become but he hated all the people around it and all that and 1:18:26.700,1:18:32.860 never bought Bitcoin he said in an interview and stuff like I saw that the 1:18:32.860,1:18:35.500 fact that you're a cyberpunk it's it that doesn't mean that you could date 1:18:35.500,1:18:44.530 that they own bit but Alan Wade and then the only piece that I have read of 1:18:44.530,1:18:50.470 Wadeye is just that be money he said I haven't read or I haven't seen reference 1:18:50.470,1:18:57.220 to other work of himself yeah he's very obscure but you had this unique 1:18:57.220,1:19:04.140 privilege to get to meet the may and he passed last month it was as unexpected 1:19:04.140,1:19:10.480 and unfortunate that had happened yes and what was he really like I only 1:19:10.480,1:19:15.370 read an interview in which he spoke about Bitcoin and he was disappointed in 1:19:15.370,1:19:21.580 the ways it it was just turning into a new PayPal but centralized exchanges 1:19:21.580,1:19:25.990 during kyc and AML's though yeah yeah why now 1:19:25.990,1:19:31.800 no not Bitcoin itself but that but the coin is an alert word were like PayPal's 1:19:31.800,1:19:38.620 Bitcoin is Bitcoin itself is is safe no and yeah but what he wrote for example 1:19:38.620,1:19:44.710 he he gave an interview I'm gonna look it up on YouTube that is very good I 1:19:44.710,1:19:52.860 recommend you to watch it or listen to it with 1:19:53.210,1:20:02.360 JW weathermen look it up on YouTube JW weathermen an interview with him in May 1:20:02.360,1:20:10.340 and then he wrote the 10-year article on coin desk that was a request of coin by 1:20:10.340,1:20:13.520 coin.this that they asked him to write something about Bitcoin the ten year 1:20:13.520,1:20:20.810 anniversary and it's a long article and exactly what he says in that article and 1:20:20.810,1:20:27.170 exactly what he says in the video which is a one-hour interview is exactly what 1:20:27.170,1:20:34.100 he used to say when I interacted with him the things that he liked Bitcoin the 1:20:34.100,1:20:38.600 things I didn't like that he had no Bitcoin because he didn't find the real 1:20:38.600,1:20:45.020 value for him personally that he had rocks and gold and stuff 1:20:45.020,1:20:49.550 like that but he didn't have people because he didn't need to transfer it 1:20:49.550,1:20:54.080 across borders he just lifted wherever he lived in the US and and he didn't 1:20:54.080,1:21:02.300 need it for more that's that's um I think that I find that is a very strong 1:21:02.300,1:21:10.520 characteristic in cypherpunks know the ones that I know not him Nick Lane and 1:21:10.520,1:21:15.770 when I when I read al Feeny they are always very not skeptical but very 1:21:15.770,1:21:19.970 down-to-earth they're not like normal humans like us that we get excited our 1:21:19.970,1:21:25.580 Bitcoin and we start dreaming of the future they just look at what things the 1:21:25.580,1:21:30.260 way they are they're down to earth and they only talk about things that they 1:21:30.260,1:21:35.600 can prove they're very rational and I think that Tim May was exactly like that 1:21:35.600,1:21:40.070 very rational and whenever he had to be skeptical he was kept achill and I think 1:21:40.070,1:21:48.400 it was also a way of thriving the rest of the group to be more 1:21:48.400,1:21:54.260 concise and thorough in what they were doing for example if he was skeptical 1:21:54.260,1:21:59.840 about Bitcoin is like having like a paternal figure or a fatherly figure 1:21:59.840,1:22:05.990 that is never that tells the son or the daughter that he's never satisfied with 1:22:05.990,1:22:11.690 what they do so the Son and the daughter are trying to be better all the time so 1:22:11.690,1:22:20.540 I think that he sometimes I thought that he paid that role when communicating no 1:22:20.540,1:22:27.170 always being skeptical and and whatever people did was not enough to satisfy so 1:22:27.170,1:22:31.370 people had to go back and work even more like like a son or daughter who was 1:22:31.370,1:22:35.120 trying to prove to their parents that they're better now yeah but that's 1:22:35.120,1:22:42.560 always productive yeah super but it makes me wonder why why was it not David 1:22:42.560,1:22:47.960 Tom who was that father figure for everybody who was involved in the idea 1:22:47.960,1:22:52.360 of digital money and cryptocurrencies 1:22:52.410,1:22:59.580 I don't know I Adam go as far back at the 80s when Chum was was like the 1:22:59.580,1:23:05.580 strongest bigger fortunately he's now back so that's amazing I was a little 1:23:05.580,1:23:10.140 bit disappointed that what he promises is like the ones that we don't like no 1:23:10.140,1:23:15.870 he promises with elixir his new system he promises full privacy full 1:23:15.870,1:23:25.470 scalability full security global and 100 million transactions per second so that 1:23:25.470,1:23:33.270 was disappointing but many were very happy that he's back and he has a I 1:23:33.270,1:23:39.120 think he has a very strong emphasis in privacy rather than the fundamentals of 1:23:39.120,1:23:43.680 money as Bitcoin yeah but how is it privacy because as 1:23:43.680,1:23:50.790 far as I could see the way of signing up for LX there was a fill in a form in 1:23:50.790,1:23:54.480 which you had to give away your name and address and you know all the KYC 1:23:54.480,1:23:59.940 requirements I don't know so I don't know I didn't even pay attention when 1:23:59.940,1:24:03.770 when they promised the the typical three things 1:24:03.770,1:24:09.470 scalability performance and and and privacy everything in the same place I 1:24:09.470,1:24:14.430 stopped paying attention I do the same with many others now that doesn't mean 1:24:14.430,1:24:19.140 that I don't respect a chairman and biggest work and that doesn't mean that 1:24:19.140,1:24:22.860 he actually discovered the day all these things maybe he has a new system that we 1:24:22.860,1:24:29.940 can't think about that that is very that solves everything at the same time if 1:24:29.940,1:24:35.670 there's anything that I've learned in my twenty sixth and almost 27 years of life 1:24:35.670,1:24:40.320 is that we should never underestimate the elders they can always surprise us 1:24:40.320,1:24:44.580 we will look at them and say oh so what can you do you're so old you can barely 1:24:44.580,1:24:50.490 move and I doubt that you can come up with anything intelligent or anything 1:24:50.490,1:24:58.340 that improves what we think is good and it's their stubbornness and it's 1:24:58.340,1:25:05.690 their idea that they stick to something which was the norm back in their day 1:25:05.690,1:25:09.910 that enables them to come up with something that we as a newer generation 1:25:09.910,1:25:17.750 wouldn't have conceived yeah absolutely I agree with that I agree also and I 1:25:17.750,1:25:21.080 think it's totally natural for the younger generations to be skeptical of 1:25:21.080,1:25:27.830 the older generation that's also healthy because if not they would stick to the 1:25:27.830,1:25:31.460 old stuff all the time and never invent anything but yeah well all these 1:25:31.460,1:25:37.610 dynamics are interesting but that's how the cypherpunks came around that's why 1:25:37.610,1:25:43.520 they were called cypherpunks yeah it were a new generation which opposed the 1:25:43.520,1:25:47.440 older norms and they wanted to build a world for themselves in which 1:25:47.440,1:25:55.730 cryptography was the norm for doing fractions yeah I'm not sure I cannot 1:25:55.730,1:26:01.160 think of projects which were successful outside of Bitcoin they did have 1:26:01.160,1:26:08.920 attempts but they all came short do one way one way or that door 1:26:08.959,1:26:15.050 tor comes from cypherpunks the tor network and then the movie network 1:26:15.050,1:26:23.889 what's the name of the one that where you move files movie files then 1:26:23.889,1:26:30.949 WikiLeaks the lawyer was Piper banks then then or is this tech net private 1:26:30.949,1:26:35.809 network know where everything is encrypted and the one that where you 1:26:35.809,1:26:47.150 move here here to here movies so bad with names file-sharing here to peer 1:26:47.150,1:26:59.239 file-sharing when there's a system so they invented many many things that led 1:26:59.239,1:27:04.570 Bitcoin Noah peer-to-peer technology stuff I think that maybe the the most 1:27:04.570,1:27:09.229 high-profile now is Bitcoin and I think that one of the reasons if not the main 1:27:09.229,1:27:13.400 reason is because people can bit torrent BitTorrent is the one that I was saying 1:27:13.400,1:27:16.539 I think BitTorrent also comes from a cyberpunk 1:27:16.539,1:27:22.610 and when I was saying Bitcoin is very high profile because people can get rich 1:27:22.610,1:27:27.039 and that's my motivation everybody to pay attention 1:27:27.039,1:27:34.300 right because in and that's what we are most even though 1:27:34.300,1:27:41.020 I guess some inventions like BitTorrent are much more influential or at least 1:27:41.020,1:27:48.450 leading up to Bitcoin they allow us to send files in a way that could not be 1:27:48.450,1:27:54.250 intervened with like in the case of Napster or other applications that we 1:27:54.250,1:28:03.790 had in the 90s and early 20s and after depended sufficiently in a saint in a 1:28:03.790,1:28:09.640 centralized third party to be able to be close by the government also meant mega 1:28:09.640,1:28:15.100 upload which was another website on which you ingest I was very easy they 1:28:15.100,1:28:21.100 just made a raid they did a raid in New Zealand and that's it no the founder is 1:28:21.100,1:28:27.160 is going to be in prison for life I think yeah that's a decentralization in 1:28:27.160,1:28:33.580 a way is a conflict minimization device as I explained before because you know 1:28:33.580,1:28:40.540 you know when Wade I wrote that he like you Multi maze concept of cryptography 1:28:40.540,1:28:48.990 and the community enforced or protected by cryptography where where government 1:28:48.990,1:28:56.050 was not present violence was not present but not because it was stopped with but 1:28:56.050,1:29:03.340 because violence was not useful in the first place because to break her 1:29:03.340,1:29:08.110 cryptography requires so much energy that in itself is a conflict 1:29:08.110,1:29:12.460 minimization device for example if you want to go to from point A to point B 1:29:12.460,1:29:17.620 and there's nothing in between you just go in a straight line if we go from 1:29:17.620,1:29:23.290 point A to point B and there is a huge wall you have to go through the cost of 1:29:23.290,1:29:28.660 going around the wall and then going to point B the wall can be a conflict 1:29:28.660,1:29:35.890 minimization device because if it's sufficiently big the wall mount and 1:29:35.890,1:29:43.390 whatever no whatever to be a natural feature it's so big that you're gonna 1:29:43.390,1:29:47.650 say okay I'm not gonna even try to go to point B when a nugget I'm not gonna 1:29:47.650,1:29:53.980 even try my I'm gonna spend my energy in something else so the the thing in the 1:29:53.980,1:30:01.060 middle whatever constituted the block or the obstacle is a conflict minimization 1:30:01.060,1:30:08.320 device in the sense that the individual is always measuring reality to see how 1:30:08.320,1:30:12.820 to reach their goals with the least in nature of energy possible or with the 1:30:12.820,1:30:19.480 least cost possible so when you impose a cost that cost if it's effective and 1:30:19.480,1:30:26.820 well design actually changes behavior of the individuals or the other individuals 1:30:26.820,1:30:32.400 when I lost I lost my line of thought I don't know why I was telling you this 1:30:32.400,1:30:41.080 you're saying about the relationship between the may and Wade I yes and Wade 1:30:41.080,1:30:46.690 and I saw Wade I what he said is that he liked the concept that in Maine had had 1:30:46.690,1:30:52.510 explained which is a place where people have rights and property and agreements 1:30:52.510,1:30:57.370 and interact between each other where violent violence is not present because 1:30:57.370,1:31:03.640 violence is not useful at all it's not even worth while attempting because the 1:31:03.640,1:31:11.140 great cryptography requires so much energy okay and that's an and that's an 1:31:11.140,1:31:17.830 F the concept of Bitcoin people I'm not stealing your bitcoins and not because 1:31:17.830,1:31:22.810 it's not possible but I could I could try to steal your bitcoins but it's so 1:31:22.810,1:31:28.239 costly to to steal them I mean to reverse your private key it's so costly 1:31:28.239,1:31:33.850 it would take all the computers in the world a million years of computing power 1:31:33.850,1:31:40.929 you just break your key so I'm not gonna go through that path the most like some 1:31:40.929,1:31:45.219 people are saying the least costly path is to actually steal your your your your 1:31:45.219,1:31:52.239 private key so that's why private key security is so important so what I'm 1:31:52.239,1:31:57.150 saying is Bitcoin is this is the first step in this cyberpunk 1:31:57.150,1:32:06.000 utopia where or ideal where at least money with bitcoin is as secure as we 1:32:06.000,1:32:12.930 die and in May right I actually have another question for you and I know this 1:32:12.930,1:32:17.400 is called the Bitcoin takeover and we're supposed to talk about the king of 1:32:17.400,1:32:25.080 cryptocurrencies but I'm often confused when I talk about aetherium and I think 1:32:25.080,1:32:29.550 the narrative about it has shifted so many times it was the world computer 1:32:29.550,1:32:36.030 then it was a way for people to print their own money and establish incentives 1:32:36.030,1:32:44.190 in the form of tokens so this let's do an ICO machine and then it was a smart 1:32:44.190,1:32:50.940 contract platform yeah and it had all these buzzwords and ways of being 1:32:50.940,1:32:56.220 rebranded into something else but it's it's hard for me to comprehend sometimes 1:32:56.220,1:33:05.580 what is the primal needs that it tries to solve I work for aetherium classic 1:33:05.580,1:33:12.240 which is the original etherium hiriam without from classic after it is the 1:33:12.240,1:33:17.370 fork over here in classic I was part of the community in 2014 when everything 1:33:17.370,1:33:27.090 started and yes I used about buzzwords like world computer and ether is oil and 1:33:27.090,1:33:31.590 stuff like that in my case I used those things first because at the time I was 1:33:31.590,1:33:37.070 learning about all all of these technologies and and how they worked and 1:33:37.070,1:33:43.470 so so I didn't have everything so clear in my mind and second because it's very 1:33:43.470,1:33:48.270 useful to create um at least some buzzwords and explanations that are easy 1:33:48.270,1:33:53.870 to understand or the rest of the public know for example a buzzword or 1:33:53.870,1:33:59.990 terminology that is simplification that is used for for Bitcoin is digital gold 1:33:59.990,1:34:04.770 many bit come people say it's digital gold it's just a it's it's just an 1:34:04.770,1:34:10.860 analogy that you do that others were new find it easier to 1:34:10.860,1:34:19.230 understand in the case of of aetherium classic I think it's it is it is correct 1:34:19.230,1:34:22.409 to say that it's about decentralized computer 1:34:22.409,1:34:28.380 computing whether it's a decentralized computer it's not the same because my 1:34:28.380,1:34:33.139 laptop that I have in front of me is a Mac and it's incredible capacity and 1:34:33.139,1:34:38.610 speed and performance and if you're in classic is greenly slowest it's like 1:34:38.610,1:34:46.440 really is truly like a small device in 1999 in terms of computing power feed so 1:34:46.440,1:34:54.929 so it's not really the world computer that that's a marketing device it's it's 1:34:54.929,1:35:00.360 it's only at the central a secure decentralized computing network and it's 1:35:00.360,1:35:06.020 very inefficient because it's the same the same principles as Bitcoin and it's 1:35:06.020,1:35:14.159 and very costly that means that a transaction cost I don't know one cent 1:35:14.159,1:35:17.670 or two cents or something like that whether in my computer's cost much less 1:35:17.670,1:35:21.750 than that and in the future when it in classic grows and and it's because of 1:35:21.750,1:35:26.610 its limited capacity as more people use it the transaction fee is going to go 1:35:26.610,1:35:31.530 even higher now it could go up $50 or $100 and that's why everything needs to 1:35:31.530,1:35:39.090 be built on top of it's tied in terms of the the attitude of using marketing 1:35:39.090,1:35:44.369 words etc I think there's like a spectrum of people someone like me I use 1:35:44.369,1:35:48.659 marketing words I am a marketing person and I understand that to communicate 1:35:48.659,1:35:52.380 many difficult things you have to simplify them and use terminology like 1:35:52.380,1:35:58.940 world computer and and it's oil not digital gold to differentiate from 1:35:58.940,1:36:03.570 Bitcoin and stuff like that but at the same time I acknowledge that there's 1:36:03.570,1:36:11.639 people other people that use it just for inflating their projects and and and and 1:36:11.639,1:36:16.199 selling their projects and there there's even further in the in the spectrum 1:36:16.199,1:36:19.559 there's people that are directly scammers that use all that terminology 1:36:19.559,1:36:25.680 and and idealistic use and and and sometimes 1:36:25.680,1:36:29.880 they use scientific papers and all that to explain them just feel money from 1:36:29.880,1:36:36.120 others now so I acknowledge that that has happened on primarily on aetherium 1:36:36.120,1:36:40.110 but the group that was like that in the original aetherium which is if you're in 1:36:40.110,1:36:46.620 classic we were all together when when helium split ninety percent of the 1:36:46.620,1:36:51.510 community went with that I also went with that group but at least until 1:36:51.510,1:37:05.430 nineteen until 2018 that group they were very focused on marketing and social 1:37:05.430,1:37:11.910 things like like equality for people in the world and stuff like that and and on 1:37:11.910,1:37:18.450 selling all this marketing jargon people like and then and then they are the same 1:37:18.450,1:37:23.820 ones who promoted ICS in 2070 in my case I stayed for three years I'm not saying 1:37:23.820,1:37:27.270 that I am a great person or anything like that just saying that within the 1:37:27.270,1:37:37.050 group I was I was the voice that I was always fighting for them not to be so 1:37:37.050,1:37:44.070 focused on social issues and not so focused on scaling fast and innovating 1:37:44.070,1:37:50.040 so fast but I was trying to convince them to be more focused on security so I 1:37:50.040,1:37:56.160 was against proof of stake against starting against the Dow hard fork that 1:37:56.160,1:38:01.680 was a huge fight and I was a very little minority and I didn't stay with it here 1:38:01.680,1:38:05.130 in classic although I supported it here in classic and I traded between plastic 1:38:05.130,1:38:10.740 every now and then because I thought that the other side had the network 1:38:10.740,1:38:16.410 effects but then in 2018 when coinbase decided to list it then I then I 1:38:16.410,1:38:20.690 definitely moved to with here in classic and I'm fighting for human class grow 1:38:20.690,1:38:27.150 etcetera and it's totally aligned with my my beliefs no but in terms of why all 1:38:27.150,1:38:33.030 these buzzwords and here iam and I cos and all that I 1:38:33.030,1:38:37.800 yes I agree I was part of it and we were inflating 1:38:37.800,1:38:44.940 things a lot so how does a Tyrian classic supplement what bitcoin already 1:38:44.940,1:38:51.780 offers yes why was the reason one of the reason is that bitcoin is very limited 1:38:51.780,1:38:58.260 you can only move money from point A to point B and that's it and store it store 1:38:58.260,1:39:05.940 value anything on top of Bitcoin that is not the model of channels like like 1:39:05.940,1:39:12.180 lightning Network which is amazing it's not trust me demise yet you need for 1:39:12.180,1:39:17.310 example liquid it's a side chain and rootstock RSK is another side chain on 1:39:17.310,1:39:22.620 Bitcoin and they both need a Federation they both need 20 25 private companies 1:39:22.620,1:39:26.940 to be the node of the the big nodes in the network to secure the network to 1:39:26.940,1:39:30.960 hold the money one on one side and to deposit it on the other and then to move 1:39:30.960,1:39:35.100 it back so evidently that doesn't work is not not what we're looking for 1:39:35.100,1:39:42.600 they're just a glorified trusted third party what what if you're in classic 1:39:42.600,1:39:48.450 offers is that it is Bitcoin in the in the basic principles and proof of work 1:39:48.450,1:39:57.000 limited the same like a fixed monetary policy ethos of immutability minimizing 1:39:57.000,1:40:01.230 force as much as possible everything is exactly the same the only difference is 1:40:01.230,1:40:06.000 that it has during completeness integrated into the base layer so it's 1:40:06.000,1:40:10.110 the it's a currency and also has two incompleteness doing completeness is 1:40:10.110,1:40:16.800 basically the ability to store and run full programs of your programs which 1:40:16.800,1:40:21.970 Bitcoin cannot do and the solution that if in classic 1:40:21.970,1:40:27.850 brings is exactly that that has to incomplete so it can run store and run 1:40:27.850,1:40:31.240 software programs and that's why and these programs because the network is 1:40:31.240,1:40:36.250 decentralized once you store them they become decentralized just I like when 1:40:36.250,1:40:40.180 you when you have a Bitcoin in Bitcoin it's a decentralized Bitcoin a software 1:40:40.180,1:40:43.870 program and if you're in classic is a decentralized soft so that's the only 1:40:43.870,1:40:51.550 difference and does that mean that if you classically replaces Bitcoin no no 1:40:51.550,1:40:56.260 because Bitcoin I think it's larger it's always going to be more secure because 1:40:56.260,1:41:00.490 if you're in classic is more complex so it could have some security holes and 1:41:00.490,1:41:04.750 and glitches in the future and it needs upgrades or more hard-working that 1:41:04.750,1:41:09.400 Bitcoin does that mean that Bitcoin is the only answer and so if you're in 1:41:09.400,1:41:15.010 class did not exist no not only because if you're in classic as doing 1:41:15.010,1:41:19.270 completeness and that decentralized programs but also because I don't think 1:41:19.270,1:41:25.540 that the whole world eight billion people in 50 years or nine billion 1:41:25.540,1:41:31.240 people are going to do and build all the systems only on top of one blockchain 1:41:31.240,1:41:35.200 like Bitcoin I think that they're going to tend to diversify even if the other 1:41:35.200,1:41:39.790 blockchain is not very secure or the house or has at least a different 1:41:39.790,1:41:46.780 security model I think that people are going to diversify so in my mind I am 1:41:46.780,1:41:51.220 guessing that they're going to be four or five networks in the future Bitcoin 1:41:51.220,1:41:56.500 hyrum classic maybe more narrow maybe like coin and some other network maybe 1:41:56.500,1:42:00.400 the other network could be actually a proof of stake network even if it's 1:42:00.400,1:42:06.400 totally less secure but it has a trade-off of security which network is 1:42:06.400,1:42:13.120 going to be that if network my mind maybe it could be here iam it just is 1:42:13.120,1:42:16.960 the leading one and they're going to move to proof of stake maybe it's going 1:42:16.960,1:42:22.140 to be e OS or maybe it's trying to be card on oh I don't know 1:42:22.860,1:42:29.490 let's say ten years from now where do you see it - Liam classic and Bitcoin 1:42:29.490,1:42:35.580 not in terms of price but in terms of adoption and in terms of achieving their 1:42:35.580,1:42:40.170 those goals and bitcoin is trying to become more like sound money by a long 1:42:40.170,1:42:45.450 fungibility whereas Experian classic is trying to run as many decentralized 1:42:45.450,1:42:49.620 application mm-hmm and scale yeah for which it needs 1:42:49.620,1:42:55.400 much sound money as well so EDC as a currency is also found money 1:42:55.400,1:43:00.930 maybe few degrees less secure than than Bitcoin because of this complexity but 1:43:00.930,1:43:05.940 it's also very sound money that's why it has the same monetary policy in the case 1:43:05.940,1:43:10.080 of Bitcoin is going to have 21 million in the case of a tear in plastic is 1:43:10.080,1:43:16.200 going to have 210 million so it's practically identical if you're in 1:43:16.200,1:43:20.580 classic because of its complexity and it needs a different form of creating 1:43:20.580,1:43:26.160 blocks than and it has ankle blocks the range is not fixed at point 210 million 1:43:26.160,1:43:33.090 is 210 to 230 million it depends on how the network behaves in the next 80 or 1:43:33.090,1:43:39.770 100 years so how - I didn't in ten years I think that 1:43:39.770,1:43:44.810 Bitcoin definitely is going in the path of success I have like a very strong 1:43:44.810,1:43:49.130 confidence that bitcoin is he's going in the path to success and I was going to 1:43:49.130,1:43:53.429 be exactly the vision that people have 1:43:53.429,1:43:57.360 digital gold I value transfers central banks are 1:43:57.360,1:44:03.449 going to have the reserves in Bitcoin all that is going to be global free move 1:44:03.449,1:44:08.280 around the world I think that that vision is going to happen for it in the 1:44:08.280,1:44:13.889 in the case of a theorem classic unfortunately although I am still very 1:44:13.889,1:44:21.570 optimistic this week we went through something that it was very like a strong 1:44:21.570,1:44:27.030 blow to theorem classic in the community and that is because it is still more 1:44:27.030,1:44:35.039 small it's a half a billion dollar Network and it has also less hashing 1:44:35.039,1:44:40.860 power than Bitcoin significantly less than Bitcoin and 20 times less than 1:44:40.860,1:44:50.880 Nigerian the current deuterium there was a there was a 51% attack on the network 1:44:50.880,1:44:55.349 it didn't break the network or anything but the attacker could reverse 1:44:55.349,1:45:00.900 transactions that is to create doubles and so that happened this week I think 1:45:00.900,1:45:09.889 it started and AJ it definitely started a January 5th point base suspended 1:45:10.250,1:45:16.190 positi-- and withdrawals when they when they saw it and then the sixth we were 1:45:16.190,1:45:21.560 the community we were alerted by Pierre Rashard and then the seventh coinbase 1:45:21.560,1:45:25.960 wrote a full report with everything that they saw they they stole more or less 1:45:25.960,1:45:31.300 220,000 et Cie and it was a twenty rule so it wasn't a breach of security 1:45:31.300,1:45:39.290 internally of etc' but it was a big minor that now disappeared but appeared 1:45:39.290,1:45:46.100 for for three days and they and they created 15 double spins and they stole 1:45:46.100,1:45:51.770 two hundred twenty thousand ET cie so that's a problem for a four atrium 1:45:51.770,1:45:57.890 classic because it's small so we cannot do much other than then continue 1:45:57.890,1:46:05.600 building the stack as we planned and to ask the whole world to use from 2,500 to 1:46:05.600,1:46:11.720 5,000 confirmations until we can minimize this attack and the other 1:46:11.720,1:46:18.530 solution is just for a Tyrian classic to continue and to grow and to pick up 1:46:18.530,1:46:23.950 become as big as Bitcoin for example in that case is going to be highly secure 1:46:23.950,1:46:31.880 you have to bear in mind that 51% attack any proof-of-work chain is vulnerable to 1:46:31.880,1:46:36.320 that attack like eight coin is full normal the only the only difference 1:46:36.320,1:46:39.770 between bitcoin is here mini theorem classic that if you're in classic it 1:46:39.770,1:46:45.260 it's it's much smaller so the cost who performed the attack is much smaller as 1:46:45.260,1:46:52.970 well but both aetherium and Bitcoin have the same security threshold 51% thought 1:46:52.970,1:46:57.860 so they could go through the same thing although it's much less likely we have 1:46:57.860,1:47:03.680 to as a network here in classic has to grow to get to that point where it is 1:47:03.680,1:47:11.020 much less likely to attack so my vision before this attack was that etc' was 1:47:11.020,1:47:15.180 going to be worth more or less five thousand dollars in ten years 1:47:15.180,1:47:22.840 because of an analysis of the IOT industry comparisons to two other 1:47:22.840,1:47:27.910 systems and amount of transactions etc and doing data analysis on a unit 1:47:27.910,1:47:37.210 economics basis gave people the a unit value for et Cie of five thousand in the 1:47:37.210,1:47:45.070 case of boy now but now that this attack happened this week of course we have to 1:47:45.070,1:47:50.980 acknowledge that just by having the principles and the design that we have 1:47:50.980,1:47:58.060 is not enough we also need to scale in size more more hashing power and the 1:47:58.060,1:48:03.840 community has to be larger for the network itself to be secure 1:48:05.369,1:48:13.209 okay so ultimately the purpose of ETM classic and in order to achieve this 1:48:13.209,1:48:19.209 goal is to have this longer and more advanced model of security and that 1:48:19.209,1:48:24.669 cannot be guaranteed by a greater amount of hashing power which secures the 1:48:24.669,1:48:30.449 network and I guess that will also happen as soon as II th completely 1:48:30.449,1:48:37.329 switches the proof of stake and there will be no more mining hmm yeah we 1:48:37.329,1:48:47.260 speculate that when that happens then the biggest network with that mining 1:48:47.260,1:48:53.260 algorithm is going to be here in classic mmm and normally when you're the biggest 1:48:53.260,1:49:01.479 network in that niche in proof-of-work you are less vulnerable and possibly 1:49:01.479,1:49:08.889 although all that hashing power that is currently mining in 88 is may move I'd 1:49:08.889,1:49:13.479 lead a big horse to etc' because it's meant to be the the biggest network in 1:49:13.479,1:49:21.699 that niche and ETH it may happen because eth moved across state or it may be 1:49:21.699,1:49:27.489 happen because eth moved to another for work algorithm because with their social 1:49:27.489,1:49:32.110 design mentality they are trying to minimize Asics so they're they're 1:49:32.110,1:49:37.749 analyzing to move to programmatic proof-of-work rock owl 1:49:37.749,1:49:45.099 and they're modifying their monetary policy again from three to two a block 1:49:45.099,1:49:50.769 so they're doing everything wrong yeah that that's your opinion if you have 1:49:50.769,1:49:57.099 flat sampler was well onion is going to say that it's the most brilliant 1:49:57.099,1:50:01.469 governance system ever conceived and it 1:50:01.590,1:50:08.800 absolutely and and and I saw the other day that Nick Johnson who's a core 1:50:08.800,1:50:16.860 developer with um classic data Paul saying like in a way like to 1:50:16.860,1:50:22.710 - trash et Cie he said if if there were double spends in in iki reom would you 1:50:22.710,1:50:28.620 reverse the double spends yes or no and I saw that more than 50% voted yes they 1:50:28.620,1:50:31.860 would reverse the double spins which is something that would never happen 1:50:31.860,1:50:37.140 immediately so that so that shows that they're a very different culture there 1:50:37.140,1:50:44.510 I'm hearing yes but if I recall correctly this summer there was this 1:50:44.510,1:50:51.420 discussion about once again hard for King ETH and help some people who got 1:50:51.420,1:50:56.010 scammed Nico yeah yeah they talked about that that all the time Forge in 3 1:50:56.010,1:50:59.460 there's some people in the community that are stopping it but I think that 1:50:59.460,1:51:04.350 some point in the future it's gonna be it's going to happen imagine one of the 1:51:04.350,1:51:09.690 companies that lost a hundred million dollars there 150 is parity right 1:51:09.690,1:51:16.050 technology and party technologies the founder is gab would have been would and 1:51:16.050,1:51:21.870 he's one of the founders of a team foundation and here he wrote the yellow 1:51:21.870,1:51:29.730 paper he's very influential and and in the past eth has shown and when there is 1:51:29.730,1:51:33.150 influential people with an opinion or with the need that they're going to read 1:51:33.150,1:51:38.580 they're going to satisfy that for example but thou art for it so yeah i 1:51:38.580,1:51:42.120 think it's going to happen when they move to proof of stake something some 1:51:42.120,1:51:47.460 point in in some hard work they're gonna sleep in the reimbursement to to all 1:51:47.460,1:51:52.950 those people maybe that's always possible there is 1:51:52.950,1:51:59.070 only this possibility that once you do something it creates a precedent in 1:51:59.070,1:52:04.650 everything and you have proven that it's possible you have showed the world that 1:52:04.650,1:52:10.350 you are willing to do it and under the necessary amount of pressure you will 1:52:10.350,1:52:17.230 most likely give in and do it once again exactly and not only that but not only 1:52:17.230,1:52:21.220 because you did it because for behaved ever since has been totally consistent 1:52:21.220,1:52:27.790 for example will be proof of stake creating starting having all of these 1:52:27.790,1:52:33.610 debates about changing changing the core protocol all the time 1:52:33.610,1:52:38.260 changing the monetary policy that's all consistent with someone that's that that 1:52:38.260,1:52:45.310 with a sufficient sufficiently strong will or or argument if they tell them to 1:52:45.310,1:52:49.690 reverse the chain they're gonna do it again all of their behavior is 1:52:49.690,1:52:55.570 consistent yeah lucky luckily I don't think we'll have any hard Forks in 1:52:55.570,1:53:03.850 Bitcoin unless maybe they want to get rid of sha-256 their mining algorithm if 1:53:03.850,1:53:08.050 it gets broken they will need to hard for games which do something else 1:53:08.050,1:53:11.950 and I think that's perfectly legitimate I think it's when when there's a 1:53:11.950,1:53:16.570 security breach or security threat and you have another technology that can be 1:53:16.570,1:53:20.020 even more secure than a current technology in that case I support 1:53:20.020,1:53:29.950 working big but so far it has resisted with only soft works and adjustments and 1:53:29.950,1:53:36.360 they had seg wet which I don't think half of the network uses it right now 1:53:36.360,1:53:41.140 I'm not sure I haven't checked in a while and they are going to have North 1:53:41.140,1:53:46.990 signatures which improve both illegality and privacy and they have many more 1:53:46.990,1:53:53.020 plans which absolutely it's great that they settled all this ailing debate and 1:53:53.020,1:53:59.290 they split into different thoughts school of thought and camps yeah that 1:53:59.290,1:54:03.970 right now they can just focus on developments and finding or innovative 1:54:03.970,1:54:09.300 ways of actually helping the project growth 1:54:09.560,1:54:15.950 I totally agree I think a big point has a brilliant roadmap and development team 1:54:15.950,1:54:24.410 and ideas all these different groups and is growing incredibly well with that 1:54:24.410,1:54:31.480 network with sound secure systems it's it's amazing it's a great example for 1:54:31.480,1:54:38.350 the rest of crypto and a great solution for the rest of the world 1:54:38.730,1:54:47.970 we we can only dream I mean we can't even imagine how far it and go and I can 1:54:47.970,1:54:52.840 speculate how difficult it is for governments of the worlds watch this 1:54:52.840,1:55:00.040 technology grow regardless of their opinion or coercion or attempts to 1:55:00.040,1:55:06.580 promote their fiat currency and I don't think at any point in the next 100 years 1:55:06.580,1:55:12.220 or at least in our lifetime we will see yet currencies getting replaced 1:55:12.220,1:55:18.400 willingly by governments on their behalf there to be an action in which they give 1:55:18.400,1:55:23.500 up on their power they're going to say we no longer issue currencies we're 1:55:23.500,1:55:30.130 going to accept this which is not created by us is not governed by us it's 1:55:30.130,1:55:35.770 all up to the individual to manage it and our economy is going to depend on 1:55:35.770,1:55:44.890 your financial choices I think that's risky for any government ever yeah did 1:55:44.890,1:55:48.580 you yeah they're going to resist all the way and they're going to try to invent 1:55:48.580,1:55:55.840 new ways to control things they might even create I think I've seen an idea of 1:55:55.840,1:56:02.380 somebody to do an e rc 20 token which replicates your Bitcoin ownership so 1:56:02.380,1:56:07.600 it's basically a smart contract which gets established to give you a 1:56:07.600,1:56:13.780 one-to-one ratio of tokens according to how much Bitcoin you you actually hold 1:56:13.780,1:56:22.030 and after a while if not all the amounts are claimed the remaining supply of 21 1:56:22.030,1:56:29.050 from the 21 million is going to get distributed among the holders 1:56:29.050,1:56:34.150 so yeah we create something which resembles proof of steak by owning 1:56:34.150,1:56:39.900 something you get much more I can't imagine how governments can 1:56:39.900,1:56:45.420 trick Bitcoin users to do this because you basically give up on your privacy 1:56:45.420,1:56:51.449 and you probably have to submit some kind of kyc and from that point onwards 1:56:51.449,1:56:59.280 they can tax you much easier they can find creative ways to make you give up 1:56:59.280,1:57:09.000 on your hard money actually for their dumb money yeah hmm but one thing that 1:57:09.000,1:57:12.840 you're going to buy one thing that you're going to find when when I talk 1:57:12.840,1:57:18.380 about Bitcoin is that sometimes I criticize parts of the security model 1:57:18.380,1:57:24.870 and sometimes I just do it on social media to be provocative but at the same 1:57:24.870,1:57:30.719 time it is because there are things that I am observing that can be security 1:57:30.719,1:57:41.100 holes in Bitcoin the two of the most ones that that I criticize are babe I'm 1:57:41.100,1:57:44.400 saying this because you just mentioned that governments are going to resist it 1:57:44.400,1:57:49.170 and and this is also the social layer now humans trying to take advantage of 1:57:49.170,1:57:54.570 other humans now that's natural biological behavior so I was just 1:57:54.570,1:57:58.530 thinking that Bitcoin has two things that are is going to enable that kind of 1:57:58.530,1:58:05.639 social attack or one is that the 21 million monetary policy is a political 1:58:05.639,1:58:10.320 decision in big brains now it's not a technical it's not enforced by proof of 1:58:10.320,1:58:17.760 work proof of work basically creates the hash for each block and it consumes a 1:58:17.760,1:58:27.239 lot of energy similar to both no but it only secures the block then as a second 1:58:27.239,1:58:32.790 step when the block is created arbitrarily there is a an account 1:58:32.790,1:58:39.570 created and they deposit a balance which is currently 12 and a half bitcoins as a 1:58:39.570,1:58:43.679 reward for block that we worked a block is just an agreement between the users 1:58:43.679,1:58:49.920 and the notes globally it's something that can be changed with a hard fork so 1:58:49.920,1:58:53.369 if there is a social attack in the future not now 1:58:53.369,1:58:57.499 because the current philosophy of bacon is very strong but maybe in ten years 1:58:57.499,1:59:03.659 forty years where miners that are very powerful etcetera and they say hey guys 1:59:03.659,1:59:06.989 you know what now the the block reward is the only 1:59:06.989,1:59:13.050 half a Bitcoin per block and I don't like that I want more money so my threat 1:59:13.050,1:59:17.729 is that if you don't pay me more for example raise it back to ten bitcoins or 1:59:17.729,1:59:23.489 twelve and a half bitcoins per block I'm not gonna mine anymore not only that 1:59:23.489,1:59:28.739 they can bribe with their big they can bribe point base and SAPO and all the 1:59:28.739,1:59:33.300 companies that work on Bitcoin and bribe government officials and whoever is 1:59:33.300,1:59:38.940 there in 40 years influencing Bitcoin and they can actually force the change 1:59:38.940,1:59:45.539 so so that is something that I see as a real threat miners have a very strong 1:59:45.539,1:59:52.199 incentive to keep the block reward as high as possible they don't have an 1:59:52.199,1:59:57.630 incentive to keep the block reward as low as possible so that means that if 1:59:57.630,2:00:01.019 they get very big in the future they are going to lobby to change the monetary 2:00:01.019,2:00:03.659 policy in their favor that's one security hole the other 2:00:03.659,2:00:09.440 charity hole which is related is that I change from Bitcoin require march mining 2:00:09.440,2:00:19.199 and or dry chains that means that the same miners that mine Bitcoin would be 2:00:19.199,2:00:24.989 mining the side chains as well so in the future if Bitcoin is worth a trillion 2:00:24.989,2:00:30.239 dollars and you have five trillion dollars ins in side chains and if the 2:00:30.239,2:00:34.650 only miners are the same miners that mine Bitcoin that means that those 2:00:34.650,2:00:39.420 miners are going to be mining six trillion dollars not only the trillion 2:00:39.420,2:00:43.260 dollars of victim and that means that those miners are going to be very rich 2:00:43.260,2:00:47.940 very influential and I call them those miners of the future if they happen 2:00:47.940,2:00:53.579 I call them super miners and those miners are going to turn into what today 2:00:53.579,2:01:02.739 are Facebook Google Amazon and the and Google and these and then the 2:01:02.739,2:01:09.750 centralized tech companies now well today tech companies Google and and 2:01:09.750,2:01:16.930 Apple they control for example the App Store and Google Play so all the 2:01:16.930,2:01:21.070 developers of the world the 26 million developers if they want to create a 2:01:21.070,2:01:25.600 start-up and put their apps available to the people in the world they have to 2:01:25.600,2:01:31.210 they have only two bottlenecks and if the which are Google and Apple and if 2:01:31.210,2:01:35.350 those two say they don't like your app you're out and the same is going to 2:01:35.350,2:01:39.010 happen with the miners in the future there's gonna be four or five miners 2:01:39.010,2:01:45.250 that control six trillion dollars in value they're going to mine Bitcoin and 2:01:45.250,2:01:50.320 and the side chains and anybody who wants to a new side chain or an 2:01:50.320,2:01:55.030 innovation and any of those will have to ask for permission to the miners so 2:01:55.030,2:02:00.790 they're gonna have a lot of power if Bitcoin enables merge mining and drive 2:02:00.790,2:02:05.710 chains or at least it's Marsh mining is there's permissionless but if they 2:02:05.710,2:02:13.630 promote it and if they implement drive change so I see those two things and 2:02:13.630,2:02:17.770 they're complementary is the same miners the same super miners are going to be 2:02:17.770,2:02:22.480 the ones that change the monetary poles and fees and everything so I still see 2:02:22.480,2:02:26.650 even though I am very pro Bitcoin and I see it the future it's a two that it'll 2:02:26.650,2:02:31.180 has some threads or it to me no this is my personal opinion I'm sure you're 2:02:31.180,2:02:34.750 gonna have many others like Jameson lop and others who are going to argue 2:02:34.750,2:02:37.770 exactly the opposite 2:02:40.190,2:02:46.920 yeah I hope I get son lop on the podcast Jameson and also 2:02:46.920,2:02:56.550 truth coin his name is he's the one pushing drag change which I oppose Paul 2:02:56.550,2:03:06.829 stork okay I read I recommend you you interview Paul's talk about writing he 2:03:06.829,2:03:12.050 the only bad thing about Paul is that he only likes to talk to scientists and and 2:03:12.050,2:03:19.530 and people like me were not scientists and to try to read his papers and watch 2:03:19.530,2:03:25.199 his videos and was an opposing opinion he basically blocked lost view because 2:03:25.199,2:03:29.309 he only wants to talk to people who are equivalent in terms of knowledge and 2:03:29.309,2:03:32.219 that's unfortunately because in these open systems you have to deal with 2:03:32.219,2:03:38.869 everybody do you think I would have any chance to get an ex a bow 2:03:40.960,2:03:47.540 he gives very few interviews and I don't know but I can give you his email any 2:03:47.540,2:03:53.870 control I yeah because it would be interesting to find out his opinion when 2:03:53.870,2:03:59.969 he envisioned bitgold he had this idea of two layers 2:03:59.969,2:04:05.520 which is very similar to what we have today with lightning and they do things 2:04:05.520,2:04:13.170 to see how he thinks about mining and oldies ischium are maybe the main points 2:04:13.170,2:04:18.660 of criticism right now I think you would have at least you would have at least 1 2:04:18.660,2:04:28.440 million listeners when you think about it maybe that I do it for the audience 2:04:28.440,2:04:34.219 so that are whatever they they listen to my podcast but there's also the selfish 2:04:34.219,2:04:41.130 purpose of learning otherwise this is like a pretext to have a conversation 2:04:41.130,2:04:47.010 about something from which I learn a lot and this is an oafish in a way because 2:04:47.010,2:04:51.930 it takes so many hours of reading and research to get to have the knowledge to 2:04:51.930,2:04:57.840 have this kind of conversation but it also helps me develop my vision and my 2:04:57.840,2:05:04.440 worldview so yeah I'm sorry audience absolutely I'm also being selfish here 2:05:04.440,2:05:08.910 but not in the sense I don't really care about how many viewers or listeners I 2:05:08.910,2:05:13.590 get it's all about putting the information out there somebody wants to 2:05:13.590,2:05:18.270 find it yeah at some point maybe it's going to be useful maybe that my limited 2:05:18.270,2:05:22.710 mind will not do anything with the information that I get is just a way of 2:05:22.710,2:05:29.460 knowing which in itself is pointless but somebody else will actually listen to 2:05:29.460,2:05:35.550 any of the conversations here and they will say ok this helps me solve this 2:05:35.550,2:05:41.670 problem which I have been having in my mind for quite some time and I guess 2:05:41.670,2:05:46.639 that's how progress is made absolutely I thought I totally agree 2:05:46.639,2:05:51.159 with you doing doing these past or casas it's a way of talking to people 2:05:51.159,2:05:56.750 understanding help Inc and learning I think it's amazing I congratulations 2:05:56.750,2:06:00.590 because the work you're doing is very good because you are really talking to 2:06:00.590,2:06:05.060 very interesting people and I'm not saying me but but for example Jamieson 2:06:05.060,2:06:10.820 law and the others that you did the videos with on crypto insider and you 2:06:10.820,2:06:15.380 ask very interesting questions and also you are very knowledgeable you do your 2:06:15.380,2:06:21.079 research you know I mean many yeah absolutely 2:06:21.079,2:06:24.739 if they go anywhere else today they would just blow me away I would be like 2:06:24.739,2:06:33.020 okay that's all I got i I know about the sir of all these technological ideas but 2:06:33.020,2:06:37.520 I cannot go into detail about it I cannot explain how it works I don't know 2:06:37.520,2:06:46.579 how to code so please spare me breathe you know generous yeah I'm not an 2:06:46.579,2:06:50.780 engineer either like we said at the beginning and not a developer but but 2:06:50.780,2:06:56.929 again when I talk to other journalists and and even some that are the leading 2:06:56.929,2:07:03.320 ones in the crypto industry and you tell them a and they write fee I mean it's 2:07:03.320,2:07:08.060 incredible I mean you want to say something one two three in that order 2:07:08.060,2:07:14.360 and when they write it you write it three two one or two three one one three 2:07:14.360,2:07:23.119 two one in any order no I think that we are aiming for your work I'm happy that 2:07:23.119,2:07:28.310 I get to do it honestly and I'm happy that people actually care about what I 2:07:28.310,2:07:34.550 do because otherwise what's the point mm-hmm and I hope we get as many 2:07:34.550,2:07:38.420 listeners and thank you for your time it has been over two hours that we have 2:07:38.420,2:07:44.090 been yes speaking and this was in some ways enlightening and that's a great pun 2:07:44.090,2:07:53.949 in lightning Network in the end we're America ting marketing animals 2:07:53.949,2:08:00.429 yeah I guess glad I I thank you for your time and for doing this interview this 2:08:00.429,2:08:04.960 podcast with me and - for giving me the opportunity to talk about all the stuff 2:08:04.960,2:08:11.560 that I think about and speculate about so I thank you I hope you promoted to do 2:08:11.560,2:08:18.400 when it comes out I will okay so I hope we talk again some other time 2:08:18.400,2:08:27.150 yes it's always a pleasure I hope so too thank you goodbye bye bye