In this John Carvalho candidly opens up about his involvement in the Bitcoin space and recalls some of the moments when he played key roles within the community.
Watch out for interesting stories about The Bitcoin Foundation and how every attempt to represent the entire group of bitcoiners inevitably suffers from a quick demise.
2:10 – The politics of Bitcoin
5:25 – Getting into BTC for the first time
8:12 – Bitcoin back in the day
10:18 – Bitcoin Foundation
12:25 – Consulting Bitcoin Foundation
14:00 – Opinions on The B (Foundation)
15:00 – Bitcoin Foundation vs The B
20:10 – Bitcoin’s multiple narratives
24:30 – Should everything be on a blockchain?
25:10 – Moments of despair in Bitcoin
29:15 – Bitcoin wants to be set free
30:30 – Andreas Antonopoulos and Roger Ver
32:00 – BTC millionaires by accident
33:30 – Bitcoin then and now
36:30 – The Bitcoin world is smaller than it seems
38:00 – Political considerations on Bitcoin
41:20 – Store of value vs mean of exchange for altcoins and for Bitcoin
43:15 – Swiss bank in your pocket
45:00 – Trump helped Bitcoin and the bull run?
48:30 – Bitcoin vs stocks
50:10 – John’s education and involvement in finance
52:50 – How John learned how to debate
53:50 – Preparing to debate Roger Ver
58:25 – How to ruin an honest debate
1:01:25 – On being skeptical
1:02:00 – Blockstream
1:08:50 – Politics vs merit and reputation
1:10:00 – Roger Ver causing friction on markets and burning his resources
1:15:00 – On Roger Ver and Jihan Wu potentially returning to Bitcoin
1:18:30 – Proud of Bitcoin involvement
1:19:10 – Bitrefill and gift cards
1:22:50 – Steam vs Steemit
1:23:40 – On the Brave browser and BAT
1:28:30 – Hyperbitcoinization
1:32:00 – On governments buying BTC
1:36:40 – Retail businesses in BTC
1:38:00 – Bitcoin in 10 years
1:40:00 – Bitcoin and fiat as Ponzis
1:41:00 – The Cantillon effect
1:42:30 – Deflationary economy
Every episode is both informative and artistic. That is why this season’s intro is a musical composition of my own, and this video depicts images that were captured with my Sony X1000v sports camera (Sony’s GoPro knockoff).
The images that you’re seeing in this episode are taken in Bucharest, the capital city of Romania – which also happens to be the place where John and I have met once. You may consider this a cultural journey which also enriches your brain with very relevant Bitcoin-related information.
Also, I apologize for mispronouncing John’s last name. His ancestry is Portuguese (not Spanish), and his name is pronounced like “Car-vah-low”. John was just too nice to interrupt me in the middle of the interview and correct me. Here’s to hoping that nobody else messes up.
Some key places that you’re seeing are:
0:53 – Calea Victoriei: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calea_Victoriei
4:19 – Ion Câmpineanu street, where you find one of the oldest cinemas in the city (Cinema Union) and lots of cool guitar shops.
11:37 – The Central University Library of Romania, which is just across the road from The Royal Palace (which nowadays serves as the National Art Museum): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Museum_of_Art_of_Romania
13:36 – The Romanian Atheneum, one of the most important cultural buildings in the city. It was famously erected thanks to a national fundraiser which lasted 28 years and is a great proof of voluntaryism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Athenaeum
18:00 – Izvor Park and The Palace of Parliament (the second largest administrative building in the world after The Pentagon, which was built in the 1980s out of our dictator’s vanity and starved the entire nation due to external debts): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_the_Parliament
20:01 – Cișmigiu Park: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cișmigiu_Gardens
29:10 – Victory Square (Piața Victoriei) during one of the many anti-governmental protests of 2017. It’s best known for the Victoria Palace, where the members of government (the executive branch) go to work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Square,_Bucharest
40:10 – The Northern Railway station, the biggest station in Romania. From that point on, you will see images of the Romanian countryside. Read more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucharest_North_railway_station
If you would like to tweet about this episode of the show, please use the #BitcoinTakeover hashtag.
Automatic Transcript (it’s great for search engines):
0:00:00.550,0:00:14.320 [Music] 0:00:19.150,0:00:22.470 [Music] 0:00:33.130,0:00:36.229 [Applause] 0:00:39.260,0:00:43.159 [Music] 0:00:45.109,0:00:51.239 hello this is Vlad and welcome to the 0:00:48.120,0:00:53.699 Bitcoin takeover podcast today's episode 0:00:51.239,0:00:55.890 feature is none other than John Carvalho 0:00:53.699,0:00:59.969 who is also known as the Bitcoin 0:00:55.890,0:01:01.829 errorlog and I really appreciate him for 0:00:59.969,0:01:04.559 the simple reason that he's always 0:01:01.829,0:01:10.409 critical and he has this type of input 0:01:04.559,0:01:13.229 which is unique and non partisan to call 0:01:10.409,0:01:16.050 it so he's like the lone wolf much like 0:01:13.229,0:01:19.679 people like Dan dark pill and other 0:01:16.050,0:01:22.500 commentators he doesn't fight to fit 0:01:19.679,0:01:25.259 into a mold he tries to be himself and 0:01:22.500,0:01:28.190 he doesn't make much of an effort to do 0:01:25.259,0:01:30.959 it and whenever he criticizes something 0:01:28.190,0:01:32.940 it's the kind of opinion which should be 0:01:30.959,0:01:35.100 taken into consideration and that's why 0:01:32.940,0:01:37.799 I thought that we should definitely have 0:01:35.100,0:01:42.380 John in this podcast and thank you for 0:01:37.799,0:01:45.950 doing this John hey thank you some very 0:01:42.380,0:01:49.289 big words to live up to but thank you 0:01:45.950,0:01:52.590 well you're best known I guess for that 0:01:49.289,0:01:54.119 notorious interview with Roger Vere but 0:01:52.590,0:01:56.520 other than that you're involved in 0:01:54.119,0:01:59.429 Bitcoin from the early days and you 0:01:56.520,0:02:01.289 attended conferences in New York and you 0:01:59.429,0:02:04.049 know a lot of people who got in very 0:02:01.289,0:02:07.679 early and I guess you have plenty of 0:02:04.049,0:02:10.320 good stories to tell about the politics 0:02:07.679,0:02:12.239 of Bitcoin because when we first spoke 0:02:10.320,0:02:13.980 and I told you that this podcast is 0:02:12.239,0:02:16.650 about politics you said you're not 0:02:13.980,0:02:19.109 really interested in politics as in 0:02:16.650,0:02:22.019 politicians but if you look at Bitcoin 0:02:19.109,0:02:24.030 and the way the narrative has changed 0:02:22.019,0:02:27.209 throughout the years and how different 0:02:24.030,0:02:30.359 actors have attained the kind of status 0:02:27.209,0:02:32.880 which gives them authority and notoriety 0:02:30.359,0:02:34.950 in the space you can see that they are 0:02:32.880,0:02:37.799 our politicians and there are many 0:02:34.950,0:02:41.010 politics regardless of what we talk 0:02:37.799,0:02:44.010 about the next soft fork or protocol 0:02:41.010,0:02:46.889 improvement or how we switched from the 0:02:44.010,0:02:49.620 narrative of a mean I mean of exchange 0:02:46.889,0:02:53.730 to a store of value that's also part of 0:02:49.620,0:02:55.890 politics and I know also that you paid a 0:02:53.730,0:02:58.080 lot of fees to the 0:02:55.890,0:03:00.480 or membership fees I'm not sure what 0:02:58.080,0:03:03.000 they were to the Bitcoin foundation and 0:03:00.480,0:03:05.760 those are also interesting stories in 0:03:03.000,0:03:08.870 themselves I have no idea what to begin 0:03:05.760,0:03:11.570 with how did you first get into Bitcoin 0:03:08.870,0:03:13.920 well first okay we covered a lot there 0:03:11.570,0:03:15.510 first I'll say yes I am generally 0:03:13.920,0:03:19.530 disinterested in talking about politics 0:03:15.510,0:03:22.800 as a greater concept but I obviously and 0:03:19.530,0:03:25.830 do participate in Bitcoin politics and I 0:03:22.800,0:03:28.740 am producing politics for the crypto 0:03:25.830,0:03:32.430 world as far as the Bitcoin foundation 0:03:28.740,0:03:35.100 goes I think it's maybe depending on 0:03:32.430,0:03:38.940 what people's exposure is to things like 0:03:35.100,0:03:42.270 this foundations nonprofit organizations 0:03:38.940,0:03:44.340 revolving around Bitcoin they're not as 0:03:42.270,0:03:46.290 important in my opinion as people think 0:03:44.340,0:03:48.450 maybe they are or maybe the influence 0:03:46.290,0:03:51.750 they may have had I don't know if I 0:03:48.450,0:03:54.390 spent a lot of fees on being a part of 0:03:51.750,0:03:56.040 these organizations but I guess looking 0:03:54.390,0:03:58.500 in hindsight at the value of Bitcoin is 0:03:56.040,0:04:02.489 now compared to then yeah I guess but 0:03:58.500,0:04:05.390 back then it was that much but I think 0:04:02.489,0:04:05.390 that you know 0:04:05.810,0:04:11.090 they were mostly ineffective and they 0:04:08.390,0:04:14.270 mostly in the past at least have served 0:04:11.090,0:04:18.170 as more like a platform for eat the egos 0:04:14.270,0:04:19.700 of the early businessmen of Bitcoin I 0:04:18.170,0:04:22.460 don't know that they ever had much 0:04:19.700,0:04:26.480 impact on Bitcoin adoption or between 0:04:22.460,0:04:28.580 education or you know helped Bitcoin in 0:04:26.480,0:04:31.460 any significant way I also don't think 0:04:28.580,0:04:33.800 they heard them in a significant way but 0:04:31.460,0:04:35.780 some people maybe would would disagree 0:04:33.800,0:04:39.260 you know we had people like you know 0:04:35.780,0:04:44.930 Roger there and Gavin injuries and Mount 0:04:39.260,0:04:46.430 GOx markup Ellis and Peter visesa knees 0:04:44.930,0:04:49.370 I don't know how to say his name but he 0:04:46.430,0:04:52.280 was involved with some of the more shady 0:04:49.370,0:04:54.860 uh mining efforts in the early days and 0:04:52.280,0:04:56.150 things like this there are a lot of 0:04:54.860,0:04:57.800 these people that just mostly had a 0:04:56.150,0:04:59.890 business interest that got a little bit 0:04:57.800,0:05:02.300 more attention and a little bit more 0:04:59.890,0:05:04.460 confidence about being able to say 0:05:02.300,0:05:08.000 they're on the Bitcoin foundation board 0:05:04.460,0:05:12.470 even now Brock Pierce loves to use this 0:05:08.000,0:05:14.270 as as a qualifier of who he is when he 0:05:12.470,0:05:17.000 is getting quotes and social media and 0:05:14.270,0:05:18.890 news like that he's a board member of 0:05:17.000,0:05:23.960 the Bitcoin foundation it's really a 0:05:18.890,0:05:26.120 totally unimportant agonism but how did 0:05:23.960,0:05:28.130 you get exposed or introduced the 0:05:26.120,0:05:31.250 Bitcoin for the first time what was it 0:05:28.130,0:05:33.830 that got you when was it the idea that 0:05:31.250,0:05:37.160 you liked the technology or was it some 0:05:33.830,0:05:40.070 kind of ideological ideas that you might 0:05:37.160,0:05:42.260 have had before I mean I've been a 0:05:40.070,0:05:44.510 person of the internet for a long time 0:05:42.260,0:05:46.850 and when I heard when I started seeing 0:05:44.510,0:05:50.090 articles about how people were ordering 0:05:46.850,0:05:52.610 drugs online using this online currency 0:05:50.090,0:05:56.350 called Bitcoin I you know definitely it 0:05:52.610,0:05:59.330 piqued my attention I started reading it 0:05:56.350,0:06:01.010 you know once I started actually looking 0:05:59.330,0:06:02.540 into what the hell this thing actually 0:06:01.010,0:06:04.490 was it just got more and more 0:06:02.540,0:06:06.919 interesting to me the more I learned and 0:06:04.490,0:06:08.900 I just started diving deeper and deeper 0:06:06.919,0:06:11.450 into the online communities that were 0:06:08.900,0:06:13.900 talking about and doing projects about 0:06:11.450,0:06:13.900 Bitcoin 0:06:14.470,0:06:23.410 that's a general answer but was it by my 0:06:19.240,0:06:25.390 time was about my stuff sorry was it by 0:06:23.410,0:06:27.370 yourself that you got in or did you have 0:06:25.390,0:06:30.460 a friends who told you something about 0:06:27.370,0:06:33.160 this new invention now it was strictly 0:06:30.460,0:06:35.170 by myself it was just you know reading 0:06:33.160,0:06:38.470 online news and things like this and and 0:06:35.170,0:06:39.730 seeing her hearing about Silk Road and 0:06:38.470,0:06:42.120 this is really the story of a lot of 0:06:39.730,0:06:49.390 people that were getting involved late 0:06:42.120,0:06:52.750 2006 and 2007 and just diving into like 0:06:49.390,0:06:55.360 Bitcoin talk org the forum's you know 0:06:52.750,0:06:58.780 ready a a lot of people were hanging out 0:06:55.360,0:07:01.720 in IRC back then more than telegram like 0:06:58.780,0:07:04.450 now this Staubach winners in IRC but I 0:07:01.720,0:07:06.580 don't really go there anymore and just 0:07:04.450,0:07:08.350 kind of learning more and more and more 0:07:06.580,0:07:11.560 it was not it's still isn't an easy 0:07:08.350,0:07:13.930 thing to fully grasp all the concepts of 0:07:11.560,0:07:16.840 how Bitcoin works and the dynamics of 0:07:13.930,0:07:19.540 how it effects things in finance game 0:07:16.840,0:07:20.770 theory and you know you anything if 0:07:19.540,0:07:22.810 you're interested in any of these fields 0:07:20.770,0:07:24.190 this is just an endless amount of stuff 0:07:22.810,0:07:27.120 you can learn especially if you would 0:07:24.190,0:07:27.120 start trying to apply it 0:07:27.620,0:07:35.270 okay I'm not sure if it was 2006 or 2007 0:07:32.030,0:07:38.030 as you mentioned maybe 2009 or something 0:07:35.270,0:07:39.380 oh sorry sorry I'm totally I'm thinking 0:07:38.030,0:07:43.070 of that I've been in Bitcoin for six 0:07:39.380,0:07:47.390 years insane 2006 no it was 2000 was 0:07:43.070,0:07:49.490 that 12 and 13 right okay I'm glad we 0:07:47.390,0:07:56.150 got that straight I can only imagine how 0:07:49.490,0:07:58.580 people who rage like oh yeah no I'm not 0:07:56.150,0:08:02.540 Satoshi although sometimes I've claimed 0:07:58.580,0:08:04.730 to be well aren't we all Satoshi yeah I 0:08:02.540,0:08:05.870 guess everybody but Craig right right 0:08:04.730,0:08:11.120 mm-hmm 0:08:05.870,0:08:13.760 then that's the meme huh so you got 0:08:11.120,0:08:15.500 interested in Bitcoin but what was it 0:08:13.760,0:08:18.560 like at the time I reckon that you 0:08:15.500,0:08:21.050 didn't have as many wallets choices it 0:08:18.560,0:08:24.350 was a lot harder if you didn't have any 0:08:21.050,0:08:27.290 technical knowledge to get in mmm yeah 0:08:24.350,0:08:30.910 back then you know it was just about 0:08:27.290,0:08:33.440 when Mount GOx was was getting into 0:08:30.910,0:08:38.420 proliferation and people using that as a 0:08:33.440,0:08:40.490 main way I did use it a little bit back 0:08:38.420,0:08:42.770 then you had to like you had to make an 0:08:40.490,0:08:44.750 account with this thing called Dwolla 0:08:42.770,0:08:47.390 and Dwolla was a way to get your money 0:08:44.750,0:08:50.450 and voila and then voila and you can 0:08:47.390,0:08:52.130 move your money from Walla Cox or you 0:08:50.450,0:08:53.030 know and or people were using things 0:08:52.130,0:08:56.810 like bitinstant 0:08:53.030,0:08:59.690 Charlie Shrem and going to like local 0:08:56.810,0:09:02.230 pharmacies or wherever it was and wiring 0:08:59.690,0:09:04.790 money and buying the coin that way 0:09:02.230,0:09:07.700 wallets I think mostly we were just 0:09:04.790,0:09:11.510 using Bitcoin coy I can't really 0:09:07.700,0:09:13.670 remember if there were um mobile wallets 0:09:11.510,0:09:16.640 anybody was actually used back then I 0:09:13.670,0:09:20.330 think maybe at some point bitpay came 0:09:16.640,0:09:25.600 around with copay but mostly we were 0:09:20.330,0:09:25.600 just using the real Bitcoin wallet um I 0:09:25.760,0:09:29.990 there was also another exchange that was 0:09:27.860,0:09:33.380 around in the u.s. from Atlanta called 0:09:29.990,0:09:34.639 camp BX and they they were doing some 0:09:33.380,0:09:36.589 normal you know you could just wire 0:09:34.639,0:09:39.649 money to them buy Bitcoin there and had 0:09:36.589,0:09:42.380 a small exchange but I don't think they 0:09:39.649,0:09:43.970 exist anymore no but most people are 0:09:42.380,0:09:45.800 using Mount Cox and that was how we were 0:09:43.970,0:09:51.170 getting the coin especially like the 0:09:45.800,0:09:53.449 next year or two after yeah there was 0:09:51.170,0:09:56.060 mount GOx and bitinstant and 0:09:53.449,0:09:59.269 interestingly both Mark Karr Pelley's 0:09:56.060,0:10:00.860 and Charlie Shrem were founding members 0:09:59.269,0:10:03.500 and board members of the Bitcoin 0:10:00.860,0:10:06.350 foundation and that was maybe the first 0:10:03.500,0:10:11.389 political entity which was established 0:10:06.350,0:10:15.920 in this space it ended up mostly being a 0:10:11.389,0:10:18.680 mistake because they wanted to be the 0:10:15.920,0:10:20.329 people that the news would call when 0:10:18.680,0:10:22.670 they needed a quote about Bitcoin cuz 0:10:20.329,0:10:25.399 Bitcoin can't represent itself really so 0:10:22.670,0:10:28.370 the you know they wanted to be the the 0:10:25.399,0:10:30.019 authority on speaking for Bitcoin but 0:10:28.370,0:10:32.180 nobody in the Bitcoin formed a 0:10:30.019,0:10:35.750 foundation mostly we're actually very 0:10:32.180,0:10:37.430 good at representing Bitcoin you know 0:10:35.750,0:10:38.899 they mostly were just representing their 0:10:37.430,0:10:42.199 businesses and there are in their own 0:10:38.899,0:10:44.480 ego interests so it wasn't they wouldn't 0:10:42.199,0:10:51.470 even give proper answers to some of the 0:10:44.480,0:10:53.630 questions the media was asking this so 0:10:51.470,0:10:55.699 they were down they would often piss off 0:10:53.630,0:10:58.069 you know the the Bitcoin er community 0:10:55.699,0:11:00.110 online by saying the wrong thing and I 0:10:58.069,0:11:03.260 remember people giving like bruce fenton 0:11:00.110,0:11:06.230 was you know a chair and an important 0:11:03.260,0:11:07.670 person the Bitcoin foundation so people 0:11:06.230,0:11:09.470 would give him a lot of shit whenever he 0:11:07.670,0:11:12.260 would say something that you thought was 0:11:09.470,0:11:15.500 stupid and then the Bitcoin foundation 0:11:12.260,0:11:16.880 kind of died for a while people were 0:11:15.500,0:11:18.470 pretty disappointed because they gave 0:11:16.880,0:11:21.019 the big grand foundation a lot of 0:11:18.470,0:11:23.449 Bitcoin and Bitcoin price appreciated 0:11:21.019,0:11:24.740 over the next few years and so people 0:11:23.449,0:11:26.959 just kind of felt a little bit burned 0:11:24.740,0:11:28.519 because they wish they'd just held onto 0:11:26.959,0:11:30.560 their Bitcoin on one hand but also 0:11:28.519,0:11:32.829 because the foundation never really 0:11:30.560,0:11:37.310 amounted to much that that they thought 0:11:32.829,0:11:39.230 was useful for them or Bitcoin then the 0:11:37.310,0:11:41.330 foundation went away for a while 0:11:39.230,0:11:44.270 didn't really say much and really the 0:11:41.330,0:11:47.810 the board I had a couple good people on 0:11:44.270,0:11:51.680 it like I know Francis Pouliot was is or 0:11:47.810,0:11:53.480 was in and a couple other guys but I 0:11:51.680,0:11:56.030 hadn't any started having like Vinny 0:11:53.480,0:11:58.520 Lingam be part of it and Brock Pierce 0:11:56.030,0:12:00.530 and yeah Brock Peters has accomplished a 0:11:58.520,0:12:02.570 lot as far as raising a lot of money 0:12:00.530,0:12:04.700 with a OS and some other projects but 0:12:02.570,0:12:07.250 he's generally these guys are not seen 0:12:04.700,0:12:09.650 as bitcoiners are seen as businessmen 0:12:07.250,0:12:14.120 that have successfully exploited crypto 0:12:09.650,0:12:18.140 you know no go on 0:12:14.120,0:12:19.610 good so then at some point there was a 0:12:18.140,0:12:21.980 new director that came around with 0:12:19.610,0:12:24.410 Bitcoin foundation I got it in my head 0:12:21.980,0:12:27.950 that I would try to help make this this 0:12:24.410,0:12:30.470 you know Phoenix Rising effort not suck 0:12:27.950,0:12:32.240 like last time so I offered to do some 0:12:30.470,0:12:34.880 consulting for them and you know 0:12:32.240,0:12:36.170 overlook this this rebranding effort 0:12:34.880,0:12:38.390 they were doing they were building a new 0:12:36.170,0:12:41.090 website I started like working with 0:12:38.390,0:12:43.310 Bruce Fenton and the new director and 0:12:41.090,0:12:46.580 giving them feedback rewriting some of 0:12:43.310,0:12:48.410 the text like this making some 0:12:46.580,0:12:50.750 recommendations about what their focuses 0:12:48.410,0:12:55.070 should be so so as not to make the same 0:12:50.750,0:12:56.780 mistakes was asked mostly they just they 0:12:55.070,0:12:59.120 took my advice when I came to like 0:12:56.780,0:13:01.760 grammatical things or technical things 0:12:59.120,0:13:05.180 but didn't really take too much advice 0:13:01.760,0:13:07.310 as far as conceptual things I think they 0:13:05.180,0:13:09.440 wanted to try to do too much and in the 0:13:07.310,0:13:11.090 end I think they're right even at this 0:13:09.440,0:13:14.720 moment pretty ineffective and not really 0:13:11.090,0:13:16.910 doing anything at all you know I also 0:13:14.720,0:13:21.500 noticed that a lot of people who got 0:13:16.910,0:13:24.590 into Bitcoin in 2013/14 are now board 0:13:21.500,0:13:27.530 members of the foundation which isn't 0:13:24.590,0:13:29.480 bad in itself but it's just the 0:13:27.530,0:13:31.550 testament of the fact that the early 0:13:29.480,0:13:33.280 bitcoiners are not interested in the 0:13:31.550,0:13:38.390 foundation anymore 0:13:33.280,0:13:41.720 no I mean it's not easy to organize 0:13:38.390,0:13:43.940 efforts in an altruistic way or or 0:13:41.720,0:13:46.130 benevolent way for a Bitcoin it's very 0:13:43.940,0:13:50.000 difficult I mean the only successful 0:13:46.130,0:13:51.920 example we have is Bitcoin core and even 0:13:50.000,0:13:52.790 that they're not they have a very 0:13:51.920,0:13:55.310 focused 0:13:52.790,0:14:00.200 it's to create code they're not trying 0:13:55.310,0:14:02.060 to do outreach or improve education or I 0:14:00.200,0:14:04.430 guess in some ways they are for their 0:14:02.060,0:14:07.250 own community but in general to try to 0:14:04.430,0:14:10.370 represent the coin in the organized way 0:14:07.250,0:14:13.280 is nearly impossible to do what while 0:14:10.370,0:14:17.150 remaining unbiased benevolent in the 0:14:13.280,0:14:25.630 eyes of all stakeholders you saw this 0:14:17.150,0:14:28.190 when Giacomo Zuko and Alina from Gaza 0:14:25.630,0:14:30.770 they tried to do this that they are 0:14:28.190,0:14:33.950 trying to do this newer foundation 0:14:30.770,0:14:36.110 called the B foundation as soon as they 0:14:33.950,0:14:37.910 unveiled this all of the coin Twitter 0:14:36.110,0:14:39.920 was yelling at them and criticizing them 0:14:37.910,0:14:42.440 for being evil before they had even done 0:14:39.920,0:14:44.390 anything and I thought that was a bit 0:14:42.440,0:14:47.300 jumping the gun so I tried to defend 0:14:44.390,0:14:50.470 them a little bit but it's true that it 0:14:47.300,0:14:53.750 is pretty impossible to organise a 0:14:50.470,0:14:58.060 benevolent non-profit effort that is 0:14:53.750,0:15:01.580 seen as doing good job by all the good 0:14:58.060,0:15:03.500 yeah but I guess in the whole process we 0:15:01.580,0:15:07.580 have learned a few important lessons 0:15:03.500,0:15:10.040 about organizing and representing on one 0:15:07.580,0:15:13.040 hand you had Bitcoin Foundation which 0:15:10.040,0:15:15.410 was trying to be all encompassing and do 0:15:13.040,0:15:18.080 everything that was required for the 0:15:15.410,0:15:20.510 project to grow from PR to the 0:15:18.080,0:15:23.740 development and everything in between 0:15:20.510,0:15:27.230 whereas the B is all about trying to 0:15:23.740,0:15:30.200 finance new developers and I spoke to 0:15:27.230,0:15:33.050 Giacomo Zuko about it and he told me 0:15:30.200,0:15:36.170 that the idea came to him after he 0:15:33.050,0:15:38.510 noticed that the best part of it Erie 0:15:36.170,0:15:41.230 Amanda's market is the fact that they 0:15:38.510,0:15:45.740 financed so many startup companies and 0:15:41.230,0:15:48.800 developers work on different sides of DT 0:15:45.740,0:15:51.920 reom roadmap so they have lots of 0:15:48.800,0:15:54.800 projects which are dispersed around the 0:15:51.920,0:15:56.510 planet they have many teams of 0:15:54.800,0:15:58.790 developers and he thought that he should 0:15:56.510,0:16:02.690 do something similar for Bitcoin core 0:15:58.790,0:16:05.360 and in this regard he organized a few 0:16:02.690,0:16:06.440 people that he was close to and try to 0:16:05.360,0:16:08.630 raise funds 0:16:06.440,0:16:12.380 and have this kind of initiative which 0:16:08.630,0:16:14.950 is all about development and trying to 0:16:12.380,0:16:17.660 finance legitimate projects which are 0:16:14.950,0:16:21.140 benevolent in this regard and once seen 0:16:17.660,0:16:23.000 the project grow but it it's never and 0:16:21.140,0:16:26.690 it's not aimed to be something which 0:16:23.000,0:16:28.250 represents Bitcoin and as you said to be 0:16:26.690,0:16:33.310 the people that you call when you have 0:16:28.250,0:16:36.230 some kind of news piece about Bitcoin 0:16:33.310,0:16:38.870 yeah well even this is this is common 0:16:36.230,0:16:40.910 with nonprofit efforts and you know 0:16:38.870,0:16:43.670 every bevy Bitcoin heir that really 0:16:40.910,0:16:45.380 loves Bitcoin at some point gets it in 0:16:43.670,0:16:48.230 their head that they want to do some 0:16:45.380,0:16:50.030 kind of project to help the coin aside 0:16:48.230,0:16:52.280 from a business you know whether it be a 0:16:50.030,0:16:55.040 website that has a collection of good 0:16:52.280,0:16:57.290 links to learn trying to form some kind 0:16:55.040,0:16:59.240 of community run a Bitcoin meetup 0:16:57.290,0:17:00.830 everybody that really loves Bitcoin 0:16:59.240,0:17:03.740 always gets this in their head and makes 0:17:00.830,0:17:07.670 some kind of efforts dissipate in out of 0:17:03.740,0:17:09.740 way it's a help but when it comes in in 0:17:07.670,0:17:11.780 my experience the more organized it is 0:17:09.740,0:17:14.600 and the more people are involved the 0:17:11.780,0:17:17.030 less effective it actually gets at 0:17:14.600,0:17:21.319 becoming a benevolent curator of 0:17:17.030,0:17:23.930 information or or resource and you see 0:17:21.319,0:17:26.120 this with the Bitcoin foundation when it 0:17:23.930,0:17:28.370 was reborn they did try to focus on 0:17:26.120,0:17:30.080 doing like programmer workshops this is 0:17:28.370,0:17:31.610 a common thing because it's it's 0:17:30.080,0:17:33.740 something that most of the most 0:17:31.610,0:17:37.670 bitcoiners will agree on we need more 0:17:33.740,0:17:39.380 developers we need to help develop feel 0:17:37.670,0:17:43.190 comfortable with participating in 0:17:39.380,0:17:46.730 contributing to core or developments for 0:17:43.190,0:17:48.590 technologies such but the Bitcoin 0:17:46.730,0:17:52.000 foundation as far as I know failed at 0:17:48.590,0:17:54.560 this they even in their second effort 0:17:52.000,0:17:56.020 they tried to do some workshops I don't 0:17:54.560,0:17:58.580 I don't think it really went anywhere 0:17:56.020,0:18:01.490 even Bitcoin core itself for a while 0:17:58.580,0:18:03.350 tried to do a they wanted to see if they 0:18:01.490,0:18:07.010 could improve their communications 0:18:03.350,0:18:09.590 efforts and I tried to help I remember I 0:18:07.010,0:18:11.680 was trying to work with meltem two 0:18:09.590,0:18:15.770 mirrors and a couple of other people 0:18:11.680,0:18:20.120 Brian Bishop and I had went to I had met 0:18:15.770,0:18:21.799 with them at consensus I think 2016 and 0:18:20.120,0:18:23.480 we were trying to do some efforts yeah 0:18:21.799,0:18:26.480 Bitcoin represented at this conference 0:18:23.480,0:18:29.120 and and see if we could head something 0:18:26.480,0:18:31.130 up a better communications core but I 0:18:29.120,0:18:35.299 learned pretty quickly that it's kind of 0:18:31.130,0:18:37.400 impossible to still a message from core 0:18:35.299,0:18:39.500 and what they agree on and what they 0:18:37.400,0:18:41.360 want to see how they would like to see 0:18:39.500,0:18:43.159 themselves represented because they 0:18:41.360,0:18:45.080 actually are pretty varied and and they 0:18:43.159,0:18:46.400 disagree on things and yeah they're 0:18:45.080,0:18:48.350 pretty uncomfortable with having 0:18:46.400,0:18:50.570 themselves represented in a way that 0:18:48.350,0:18:53.600 they don't you know agree with as 0:18:50.570,0:18:56.059 individuals so that effort kind of 0:18:53.600,0:18:59.179 didn't last very long I mean we managed 0:18:56.059,0:19:01.039 to help get some core representatives 0:18:59.179,0:19:03.440 representing Bitcoin better at that 0:19:01.039,0:19:05.360 conference but after a week or two later 0:19:03.440,0:19:08.779 the efforts just became a waste of time 0:19:05.360,0:19:11.000 because nobody there was no head there's 0:19:08.779,0:19:14.059 no leader in core there was nobody to 0:19:11.000,0:19:15.950 like help guide us to tell us you know 0:19:14.059,0:19:18.049 what kind of messages what kind of 0:19:15.950,0:19:19.940 education or what kind of things we 0:19:18.049,0:19:24.230 should be doing to help communications 0:19:19.940,0:19:27.500 it was kind of impossible so III hope 0:19:24.230,0:19:31.490 that the bee can figure out doing a 0:19:27.500,0:19:33.740 better job at least with programming but 0:19:31.490,0:19:35.299 both of the core efforts to improve 0:19:33.740,0:19:38.419 communications and it sounds like from 0:19:35.299,0:19:41.510 what you say the bee it comes from the 0:19:38.419,0:19:43.970 one thing that we all could see it about 0:19:41.510,0:19:46.429 that what aetherium did well was was 0:19:43.970,0:19:47.929 intrigue developers and it got a lot of 0:19:46.429,0:19:50.210 programs interested in putting in 0:19:47.929,0:19:52.929 programming time for working on creating 0:19:50.210,0:19:55.250 software that was built on aetherium 0:19:52.929,0:19:58.490 Bitcoin has not been very good at that 0:19:55.250,0:20:01.210 I mean it's been good in the quality 0:19:58.490,0:20:03.710 sense but in the quantity sense know 0:20:01.210,0:20:05.510 there are a lot of developers and a lot 0:20:03.710,0:20:08.630 of money and a lot of investors putting 0:20:05.510,0:20:11.270 money into theorem projects and there's 0:20:08.630,0:20:13.159 a little bit of envy on the coin side as 0:20:11.270,0:20:14.720 to and like what if we could have 0:20:13.159,0:20:16.760 captured that what if we could have had 0:20:14.720,0:20:20.059 all those people that wanted to make 0:20:16.760,0:20:21.860 things on a theory on me the coin but I 0:20:20.059,0:20:24.049 guess the whole beauty of Bitcoin is 0:20:21.860,0:20:27.590 that you don't have an official 0:20:24.049,0:20:29.659 narrative you don't have a talk leader 0:20:27.590,0:20:32.630 to come to you and say this is our 0:20:29.659,0:20:33.640 vision this is what we pursue you have 0:20:32.630,0:20:36.910 different 0:20:33.640,0:20:40.320 opinions on what it is depending on the 0:20:36.910,0:20:43.059 background of these people you'll have 0:20:40.320,0:20:45.580 anthropologists who will explain to you 0:20:43.059,0:20:48.970 why it's the evolution of money then 0:20:45.580,0:20:52.120 you'll have economists like Sipho Dean 0:20:48.970,0:20:55.120 how do you pronounce his name I think 0:20:52.120,0:20:57.670 it's safer Dean but I actually don't say 0:20:55.120,0:21:00.640 for Dean he wrote the Bitcoin standard 0:20:57.670,0:21:04.450 and he associated Bitcoin with his 0:21:00.640,0:21:07.059 libertarian views on economy and in the 0:21:04.450,0:21:09.460 sense he created a good convergence to 0:21:07.059,0:21:11.650 build a new narrative or what bitcoin is 0:21:09.460,0:21:13.720 and it's not like it was the first one 0:21:11.650,0:21:17.380 to do it but he was the latest and the 0:21:13.720,0:21:20.290 most efficient and influential person to 0:21:17.380,0:21:23.500 accomplish this task and also you have 0:21:20.290,0:21:27.010 people who will see free speech and 0:21:23.500,0:21:29.559 censorship resistance in Bitcoin and all 0:21:27.010,0:21:35.140 these stories and all these experiences 0:21:29.559,0:21:38.169 all mixed together and build something 0:21:35.140,0:21:40.419 greater than the vision of etherium for 0:21:38.169,0:21:42.910 example which is going to say that they 0:21:40.419,0:21:45.010 want to decentralize applications or 0:21:42.910,0:21:48.520 whatever or build a world computer and 0:21:45.010,0:21:52.330 that comes from the top comes from a few 0:21:48.520,0:21:54.760 top a few thought leaders to establish 0:21:52.330,0:21:57.460 this line of chart and they create the 0:21:54.760,0:21:59.760 narrative but in Bitcoin if you point 0:21:57.460,0:22:02.350 out a few features you're going to 0:21:59.760,0:22:05.470 displease some other people who see 0:22:02.350,0:22:09.059 something different in it that's the 0:22:05.470,0:22:09.059 whole charm of the protocol 0:22:15.520,0:22:19.029 are you still there 0:22:19.050,0:22:22.500 oh sorry I had my mic off 0:22:20.910,0:22:24.750 yeah I think that means that it's 0:22:22.500,0:22:26.010 working you know in Bitcoin the only 0:22:24.750,0:22:27.900 thing you're supposed to represent 0:22:26.010,0:22:29.940 yourself you're supposed to be able to 0:22:27.900,0:22:32.100 verify for yourself you're supposed to 0:22:29.940,0:22:35.520 be able to choose your software that 0:22:32.100,0:22:38.460 you're running yourself and um this this 0:22:35.520,0:22:40.980 echoes into all of things bitcoins so I 0:22:38.460,0:22:43.500 think when the when the organized or 0:22:40.980,0:22:45.870 more centralized efforts kind of can 0:22:43.500,0:22:47.910 only get so big and only be so effective 0:22:45.870,0:22:49.530 it's kind of evidence that Bitcoin is 0:22:47.910,0:22:51.750 working the way it's supposed because 0:22:49.530,0:22:55.020 you're it's hard to have influence over 0:22:51.750,0:22:57.990 other people and kind of I guess what 0:22:55.020,0:22:59.820 consensus means is that only thing that 0:22:57.990,0:23:02.370 everybody agrees on the lowest common 0:22:59.820,0:23:04.710 denominator in the end is is the only 0:23:02.370,0:23:07.740 thing that's gonna pass through so when 0:23:04.710,0:23:11.720 you have individualized incentives 0:23:07.740,0:23:14.370 individualized motivations these things 0:23:11.720,0:23:17.820 become more difficult to proliferate and 0:23:14.370,0:23:19.490 and organized because if most bitcoiners 0:23:17.820,0:23:21.210 don't want it it's just not gonna happen 0:23:19.490,0:23:23.790 whereas we're like you said with 0:23:21.210,0:23:25.830 aetherium you can have more central 0:23:23.790,0:23:28.440 power and influence and things like this 0:23:25.830,0:23:30.660 and it will you know it it'll influence 0:23:28.440,0:23:32.790 other people to follow along you know 0:23:30.660,0:23:34.550 when when Vitalik and a few programmers 0:23:32.790,0:23:37.440 decide that they want to have 0:23:34.550,0:23:39.030 constantinople and they just say this is 0:23:37.440,0:23:40.820 what's gonna happen and then everybody 0:23:39.030,0:23:43.260 kind of just goes along with it 0:23:40.820,0:23:45.390 whereas in Bitcoin you know we have 0:23:43.260,0:23:50.250 something like Segway to X or a 0:23:45.390,0:23:52.710 controversial yeah change and it falls 0:23:50.250,0:23:55.280 flat thighs because it's just too 0:23:52.710,0:23:57.690 controversial isn't enough consensus and 0:23:55.280,0:24:00.210 even a theory amiss starting to see this 0:23:57.690,0:24:03.030 because despite that their their node 0:24:00.210,0:24:06.270 structure and other aspects are fairly 0:24:03.030,0:24:08.220 centralized development etc and they 0:24:06.270,0:24:10.440 have achieved a little bit more to 0:24:08.220,0:24:12.420 centralization over time and now you're 0:24:10.440,0:24:14.340 starting to see things like how there 0:24:12.420,0:24:17.450 are some people that upgraded to the 0:24:14.340,0:24:20.429 Constantinople fork that was that was 0:24:17.450,0:24:21.900 backtracked but they stayed on and so 0:24:20.429,0:24:27.330 now there's a fork of that network 0:24:21.900,0:24:29.460 already on intention so yeah if the 0:24:27.330,0:24:31.520 centralization is very difficult to 0:24:29.460,0:24:34.610 overcome 0:24:31.520,0:24:37.730 and in the same line of Todd 0:24:34.610,0:24:41.030 there shouldn't be everything that we 0:24:37.730,0:24:44.059 can imagine in the digital realm put it 0:24:41.030,0:24:46.700 on the blockchain we shouldn't think of 0:24:44.059,0:24:49.220 these kind of ridiculous implementations 0:24:46.700,0:24:52.730 which are slow and inefficient and do 0:24:49.220,0:24:54.200 not justify their presence there I guess 0:24:52.730,0:24:56.150 most of things did not be on a 0:24:54.200,0:24:59.000 blockchain it's just yeah I totally 0:24:56.150,0:25:01.280 agree I mean in the end blockchain is 0:24:59.000,0:25:04.040 just a highly redundant and highly 0:25:01.280,0:25:05.540 inefficient database and you shouldn't 0:25:04.040,0:25:07.070 just be block chaining things because 0:25:05.540,0:25:08.870 it's cool we should be block chaining 0:25:07.070,0:25:11.960 them because you're trying to achieve 0:25:08.870,0:25:13.790 censorship resistance there is not 0:25:11.960,0:25:15.830 really any special efficiency or reason 0:25:13.790,0:25:19.250 to be storing things and such a 0:25:15.830,0:25:20.600 redundant inefficient database if you're 0:25:19.250,0:25:22.880 going to be running a centralized 0:25:20.600,0:25:28.580 project you're much better off using a 0:25:22.880,0:25:31.040 more efficient database set up so you 0:25:28.580,0:25:35.690 have been in Bitcoin for six to seven 0:25:31.040,0:25:39.320 years and was there me what was that I 0:25:35.690,0:25:41.360 said about six yes about six and was 0:25:39.320,0:25:45.980 there a moment when you felt like it's 0:25:41.360,0:25:48.650 all crashing down and crumbling I mean 0:25:45.980,0:25:51.800 if you want to talk about the Bitcoin 0:25:48.650,0:25:56.000 value yeah sure man it hurts when you 0:25:51.800,0:25:58.130 when you go from 20 a to 3k it hurts 0:25:56.000,0:26:00.200 when you go from you know twelve hundred 0:25:58.130,0:26:02.690 dollars or whatever it was to under two 0:26:00.200,0:26:04.970 hundred dollars I've seen you know a few 0:26:02.690,0:26:07.460 of these these market cycles now and 0:26:04.970,0:26:09.200 every time it hurts because you never 0:26:07.460,0:26:11.450 sell everything at the top and buy 0:26:09.200,0:26:15.500 everything at the bottom only the very 0:26:11.450,0:26:17.750 few are this good at choosing tops and 0:26:15.500,0:26:20.360 bottoms and most people are gonna feel 0:26:17.750,0:26:23.360 some regret and also being around this 0:26:20.360,0:26:25.100 long you know eventually Bitcoin always 0:26:23.360,0:26:27.890 hits a price you know I learned this at 0:26:25.100,0:26:30.530 20k I made a tweet when we were at 20k 0:26:27.890,0:26:32.679 or so and I said as of today everybody 0:26:30.530,0:26:36.280 who ever sold a Bitcoin was wrong and 0:26:32.679,0:26:39.260 all I meant by that was you know if 0:26:36.280,0:26:41.030 everybody that sold yeah maybe they had 0:26:39.260,0:26:42.710 to or maybe they were speculating or 0:26:41.030,0:26:44.270 trying to pick a top or a bottom but 0:26:42.710,0:26:46.850 they 0:26:44.270,0:26:49.040 they were all wrong if they if all I had 0:26:46.850,0:26:51.110 done was hold the Bitcoin that I held 0:26:49.040,0:26:53.600 when I had the most Bitcoin I mean fuck 0:26:51.110,0:26:55.280 man I'd be I'd be rich as hell but I 0:26:53.600,0:26:58.700 didn't do that and most people don't 0:26:55.280,0:27:00.140 that most people can't so I think you 0:26:58.700,0:27:03.020 know for the people that that feel 0:27:00.140,0:27:05.150 regret or pain for these these 0:27:03.020,0:27:07.340 fluctuations they should take a little 0:27:05.150,0:27:09.410 bit of Solace and the fact that this is 0:27:07.340,0:27:12.320 webbed most people they're not they're 0:27:09.410,0:27:17.030 not unique it's extremely difficult to 0:27:12.320,0:27:18.530 have enough monetary value or personal 0:27:17.030,0:27:20.090 net worth to just be able to hold 0:27:18.530,0:27:23.090 everything in Bitcoin wait long enough 0:27:20.090,0:27:25.970 so you can be as rich as possible 0:27:23.090,0:27:28.340 most people just can't do that even core 0:27:25.970,0:27:32.090 developers you know we saw Luke junior 0:27:28.340,0:27:34.850 putting his hand out for donations even 0:27:32.090,0:27:36.679 despite the massive bull run we had we 0:27:34.850,0:27:38.929 have live is we have expenses we have to 0:27:36.679,0:27:40.910 do things and even though you know some 0:27:38.929,0:27:43.340 of us were around in the early days and 0:27:40.910,0:27:44.150 had tons of Bitcoin and we don't have 0:27:43.340,0:27:46.460 them anymore 0:27:44.150,0:27:48.440 and most people don't have anymore it's 0:27:46.460,0:27:50.960 a completely wrong assumption to assume 0:27:48.440,0:27:53.120 that the amount of years that people 0:27:50.960,0:27:55.340 have been in Bitcoin it's that that's a 0:27:53.120,0:27:59.390 somehow directly correlated to our rich 0:27:55.340,0:28:02.360 they are yeah it makes a lot of sense 0:27:59.390,0:28:06.230 and I remember the first time I bought 0:28:02.360,0:28:08.750 any Bitcoin I sold it on an exchange for 0:28:06.230,0:28:09.740 a $10 profit or something and I was so 0:28:08.750,0:28:14.050 proud of myself 0:28:09.740,0:28:14.050 yep everybody does it everybody 0:28:14.080,0:28:19.930 I had very little trust and I guess most 0:28:17.470,0:28:23.680 people get into it just because they see 0:28:19.930,0:28:25.270 news about the price action and figure 0:28:23.680,0:28:29.650 out this might be their chance to 0:28:25.270,0:28:32.230 maximize their Fiat but the few people 0:28:29.650,0:28:35.050 who stay and get into the communities 0:28:32.230,0:28:38.290 and learn more actually become valuable 0:28:35.050,0:28:42.120 members and help spread the adoption in 0:28:38.290,0:28:45.490 ways that we can't even comprehend and 0:28:42.120,0:28:48.010 this is useful it's not like Bitcoin 0:28:45.490,0:28:50.170 will become a global phenomenon because 0:28:48.010,0:28:52.830 people realize overnight that they need 0:28:50.170,0:28:57.720 sound money that will never happen 0:28:52.830,0:29:00.340 we always need hopefully not never know 0:28:57.720,0:29:02.380 we need the help of people who are 0:29:00.340,0:29:06.280 knowledgeable and can actually create 0:29:02.380,0:29:10.210 useful stuff even if it's a few articles 0:29:06.280,0:29:13.560 or translations for wallets to be used 0:29:10.210,0:29:16.420 in many languages around the world 0:29:13.560,0:29:19.570 there's a lot to begin I kind of have 0:29:16.420,0:29:22.000 like I have a abstract theory about 0:29:19.570,0:29:23.620 Bitcoin and that I believe that bitcoins 0:29:22.000,0:29:25.540 want to be free bitcoin is like 0:29:23.620,0:29:27.670 information wants to be set free it 0:29:25.540,0:29:30.550 wants to propagate it wants to travel 0:29:27.670,0:29:33.070 around as much as it can and that's what 0:29:30.550,0:29:35.920 makes holding Bitcoin so hard I can't 0:29:33.070,0:29:38.080 put this in a practical or logical 0:29:35.920,0:29:39.790 explanation only to say that I've just 0:29:38.080,0:29:41.440 witnessed it over and over and over and 0:29:39.790,0:29:43.900 myself and everybody I've ever known in 0:29:41.440,0:29:46.660 Bitcoin that bitcoins really want to be 0:29:43.900,0:29:48.910 set free and to hold them is like trying 0:29:46.660,0:29:50.230 to hold like you know like Lord of the 0:29:48.910,0:29:55.060 Rings like trying to hold the One Ring 0:29:50.230,0:29:57.220 it's it just it has a toxic effect and 0:29:55.060,0:29:59.140 eventually you have to let them go and I 0:29:57.220,0:30:01.420 think that this I think a lot of people 0:29:59.140,0:30:03.460 if you really ask them will probably 0:30:01.420,0:30:05.140 have similar stories about how they had 0:30:03.460,0:30:06.820 to let their Bitcoin go for own reason 0:30:05.140,0:30:08.470 or another whether it be because of 0:30:06.820,0:30:10.810 their own ignorance and trying to think 0:30:08.470,0:30:14.620 they can trade or because of expenses or 0:30:10.810,0:30:16.210 life happening bitcoins want to be free 0:30:14.620,0:30:20.260 and everybody wants to take them from 0:30:16.210,0:30:22.510 you so holding is not easy holding it's 0:30:20.260,0:30:24.130 a hard lesson to learn a lesson a lot of 0:30:22.510,0:30:26.770 people spend a lot of time trying to 0:30:24.130,0:30:27.690 teach people but in practice it's much 0:30:26.770,0:30:29.520 more difficult 0:30:27.690,0:30:31.830 and people realize even when you do 0:30:29.520,0:30:35.250 learn the lesson it's even hard just to 0:30:31.830,0:30:37.320 get yourself to obey lesson I remember 0:30:35.250,0:30:41.070 there was this story about Andreas 0:30:37.320,0:30:43.320 Antonopoulos who at some point didn't 0:30:41.070,0:30:48.360 own any more Bitcoin because he sold it 0:30:43.320,0:30:50.270 to help his ill mother or something so I 0:30:48.360,0:30:53.610 don't remember the details I remember 0:30:50.270,0:30:56.220 like the day after I did the Roger ver 0:30:53.610,0:30:58.440 interview with him flipping me off that 0:30:56.220,0:30:59.610 there was there was some kind of you 0:30:58.440,0:31:02.280 know there was a lot of hate going 0:30:59.610,0:31:06.990 around for Roger at that time and I 0:31:02.280,0:31:08.190 remember Roger attacking andreas about 0:31:06.990,0:31:09.450 something saying he should have held 0:31:08.190,0:31:11.970 more Bitcoin and you wouldn't have these 0:31:09.450,0:31:13.680 problems like and I don't remember what 0:31:11.970,0:31:16.050 it was interest was obviously must have 0:31:13.680,0:31:18.330 posted about needing money or we're 0:31:16.050,0:31:19.890 trying to make money and Roger was like 0:31:18.330,0:31:22.140 judging him and Roger had just finished 0:31:19.890,0:31:24.870 you know trying to judge me and talking 0:31:22.140,0:31:26.400 about how much money do you have how 0:31:24.870,0:31:28.020 much is your business make and saying 0:31:26.400,0:31:29.850 all these things so there was a lot of 0:31:28.020,0:31:31.110 hate going around for Roger and I 0:31:29.850,0:31:34.230 remembered I felt like the community 0:31:31.110,0:31:37.590 when Roger was attacking andreas they 0:31:34.230,0:31:39.810 kind of parlayed or channeled all this 0:31:37.590,0:31:40.470 hate that he had just generated for 0:31:39.810,0:31:42.750 himself 0:31:40.470,0:31:44.400 and they into them donating a lot of 0:31:42.750,0:31:45.840 money to Andreas I think maybe he 0:31:44.400,0:31:49.260 received a million dollars or so in 0:31:45.840,0:31:51.150 Bitcoin when we shared this story and 0:31:49.260,0:31:54.000 how Roger was attacking him and stuff 0:31:51.150,0:31:55.740 what and andreas is explaining how hey 0:31:54.000,0:31:58.020 man I have it life to live and I have to 0:31:55.740,0:32:01.080 you know so my Bitcoin to be able to 0:31:58.020,0:32:04.250 live it and the community all kind of 0:32:01.080,0:32:08.190 channeled this into helping Andre us out 0:32:04.250,0:32:10.890 so this totally dispels the narrative or 0:32:08.190,0:32:13.800 the theory that people who got into 0:32:10.890,0:32:16.680 Bitcoin early on are millionaires by now 0:32:13.800,0:32:20.460 and we see on the news all the time all 0:32:16.680,0:32:23.100 these teenagers who somehow but some 0:32:20.460,0:32:25.350 Bitcoin in 2010 or something to get 0:32:23.100,0:32:27.690 drugs on Silk Road and maybe there were 0:32:25.350,0:32:29.460 they were too stoned to remember that 0:32:27.690,0:32:32.160 they were supposed to buy drugs and they 0:32:29.460,0:32:36.200 ended up holding them for seven years 0:32:32.160,0:32:38.340 until 2017 and then they were rich I 0:32:36.200,0:32:40.380 mean I don't want to say it's totally 0:32:38.340,0:32:43.919 dispels it because I'm just 0:32:40.380,0:32:45.720 one anecdotal account from me this is my 0:32:43.919,0:32:48.059 impression and my impression may be also 0:32:45.720,0:32:49.590 from other people I know but I mean 0:32:48.059,0:32:53.730 surely there are going to be counter 0:32:49.590,0:32:55.590 examples where he may be some of the 0:32:53.730,0:32:58.380 older core developers are still holding 0:32:55.590,0:32:59.730 hundreds or thousands of Bitcoin and set 0:32:58.380,0:33:01.470 for the rest of their life 0:32:59.730,0:33:04.080 way more than even whatever it needs to 0:33:01.470,0:33:06.539 be but I don't know you know I feel like 0:33:04.080,0:33:08.460 I don't consider my while I may have 0:33:06.539,0:33:12.210 unique opinions on things I think that 0:33:08.460,0:33:14.940 as a human I like to think of my actions 0:33:12.210,0:33:17.070 as being common actions and whatever I 0:33:14.940,0:33:19.590 did with my Bitcoin or whatever I did 0:33:17.070,0:33:21.330 investment wise or selling wise that 0:33:19.590,0:33:25.500 probably like you let a lot of people 0:33:21.330,0:33:28.049 behave the same way so I think that may 0:33:25.500,0:33:30.539 be my story in my perspective is common 0:33:28.049,0:33:32.549 but I'm sure there are there are also 0:33:30.539,0:33:34.620 people that held whether it be my 0:33:32.549,0:33:38.789 mistake on purpose for quite a long time 0:33:34.620,0:33:41.730 I have millions of dollars so how would 0:33:38.789,0:33:46.020 you compare the Bitcoin landscape right 0:33:41.730,0:33:48.690 now with everything that was going on 0:33:46.020,0:33:51.030 around the time when you got in I know 0:33:48.690,0:33:53.640 the phenomenon has gotten bigger and 0:33:51.030,0:33:57.570 there are many more people involved but 0:33:53.640,0:33:59.490 at the same time I guess it's pretty 0:33:57.570,0:34:04.500 much the same in terms of development 0:33:59.490,0:34:06.659 you have this very few you have these 0:34:04.500,0:34:10.590 few developers who actually work on the 0:34:06.659,0:34:12.840 protocol and it wasn't I feel like 0:34:10.590,0:34:15.840 nothing much has happened except for 0:34:12.840,0:34:17.700 Gavin stepping out and the moderate 0:34:15.840,0:34:22.560 people joining the core development team 0:34:17.700,0:34:25.740 I mean a lot has happened has that 0:34:22.560,0:34:28.500 happened in - to the degree that others 0:34:25.740,0:34:31.590 would stay so or think so no I mean 0:34:28.500,0:34:33.510 Bitcoin was so small back then and it's 0:34:31.590,0:34:36.899 so much smaller even now than people a 0:34:33.510,0:34:39.570 lot of people realize but there is kind 0:34:36.899,0:34:42.240 of like this this outer Bitcoin this 0:34:39.570,0:34:44.879 outer crypto that is so somewhat of a 0:34:42.240,0:34:47.310 mystery to all but you know companies 0:34:44.879,0:34:49.530 like coinbase and such I mean when basis 0:34:47.310,0:34:51.820 is claiming that they have 20 30 million 0:34:49.530,0:34:55.060 30 million users 0:34:51.820,0:34:57.220 and encrypt though Twitter like you're 0:34:55.060,0:34:58.900 pretty much the epitome of famous if you 0:34:57.220,0:35:02.080 have I don't know a hundred thousand 0:34:58.900,0:35:04.930 followers so if the best you can get is 0:35:02.080,0:35:08.950 you know fifty a hundred thousand 0:35:04.930,0:35:11.170 followers or so as a crypto entity and 0:35:08.950,0:35:14.590 but there are thirty million people in 0:35:11.170,0:35:17.260 this just using coinbase alone at least 0:35:14.590,0:35:19.930 at its peak like who are those people 0:35:17.260,0:35:22.150 where are those people because I know 0:35:19.930,0:35:25.150 that in crypto Twitter you know things 0:35:22.150,0:35:28.180 are still pretty small Bitcoin talk 0:35:25.150,0:35:31.030 forum is probably used you know the same 0:35:28.180,0:35:34.330 amount a little bit more a little bit 0:35:31.030,0:35:35.830 less as it was back then read it I feel 0:35:34.330,0:35:38.110 like even though I think it hit like a 0:35:35.830,0:35:40.690 million users or something recently it 0:35:38.110,0:35:42.340 feels kind of dead and it kind of feels 0:35:40.690,0:35:46.810 a little bit irrelevant to me these days 0:35:42.340,0:35:48.640 maybe it's just me but in Twitter seems 0:35:46.810,0:35:50.950 to be where everything's happening a 0:35:48.640,0:35:53.260 telegram also there's some good 0:35:50.950,0:35:56.020 communities and more private rooms and 0:35:53.260,0:35:58.990 things like this but it still feels 0:35:56.020,0:36:00.370 really really really small um you know 0:35:58.990,0:36:01.780 from trying to do Bitcoin business 0:36:00.370,0:36:03.220 projects as well you get a better 0:36:01.780,0:36:05.620 perspective on how many users that 0:36:03.220,0:36:07.840 really are for certain use cases and you 0:36:05.620,0:36:11.110 just realize that like the only way 0:36:07.840,0:36:13.480 you're gonna reach some kind of massive 0:36:11.110,0:36:15.100 success like you know is if you are 0:36:13.480,0:36:17.770 somebody like coinbase or a major 0:36:15.100,0:36:19.870 exchange you're not a major exchange and 0:36:17.770,0:36:23.980 capitalizing and exploiting the the 0:36:19.870,0:36:26.380 speculative aspects big coin then your 0:36:23.980,0:36:30.040 your crypto business is significantly 0:36:26.380,0:36:33.870 smaller comparison i think i've also 0:36:30.040,0:36:37.420 noticed in time that we have these big 0:36:33.870,0:36:40.300 conglomerates of websites which are 0:36:37.420,0:36:42.070 relates it's a Bitcoin and crypto you 0:36:40.300,0:36:44.170 have block one which has lots of 0:36:42.070,0:36:48.190 ventures which are affiliated or 0:36:44.170,0:36:50.680 financed by them and then I I never knew 0:36:48.190,0:36:53.020 until I checked out their website but 0:36:50.680,0:36:56.740 the coin Telegraph also owns coin market 0:36:53.020,0:37:00.310 cap and coin gecko and what's mine comm 0:36:56.740,0:37:04.300 and Bitcoin magazine and lots of other 0:37:00.310,0:37:06.970 smaller websites that are related 0:37:04.300,0:37:09.670 and the more you discovered the more you 0:37:06.970,0:37:13.330 realize that this world is not as big as 0:37:09.670,0:37:15.730 it seems and you might have many people 0:37:13.330,0:37:18.600 who work in the field but those who own 0:37:15.730,0:37:23.140 did a large amounts of Bitcoin our 0:37:18.600,0:37:24.790 pretty few yeah I mean I think it's 0:37:23.140,0:37:28.300 obviously there's some kind of newer 0:37:24.790,0:37:29.350 layers developing on the community we 0:37:28.300,0:37:32.170 just got to figure out how to integrate 0:37:29.350,0:37:34.120 it better because you know if I don't 0:37:32.170,0:37:36.670 think necessarily that coinbase is lying 0:37:34.120,0:37:38.680 about having 20 or 30 minutes cuz I 0:37:36.670,0:37:41.200 think it's just that maybe it's because 0:37:38.680,0:37:44.680 these are just like really really 0:37:41.200,0:37:46.810 superficial or lightly involved like it 0:37:44.680,0:37:48.790 might just be a lot of people that just 0:37:46.810,0:37:51.100 wanted to buy 50 bucks with Bitcoin as 0:37:48.790,0:37:54.160 an investment you know as a gamble and 0:37:51.100,0:37:56.350 just forget about it but we have to 0:37:54.160,0:37:57.880 figure out getting all those people to 0:37:56.350,0:38:00.400 actually understand what bitcoin is 0:37:57.880,0:38:02.740 holding their own Bitcoin you know being 0:38:00.400,0:38:05.410 involved in actually understanding why 0:38:02.740,0:38:10.660 it's an interesting technology and 0:38:05.410,0:38:12.930 interesting money I recall I saw this 0:38:10.660,0:38:18.150 website which was made by Jackson Palmer 0:38:12.930,0:38:20.470 it was are we decentralized yet calm and 0:38:18.150,0:38:23.560 sometimes I would visit it just to 0:38:20.470,0:38:26.520 remind myself that there so you such few 0:38:23.560,0:38:29.710 nodes running each protocol even though 0:38:26.520,0:38:32.260 the coins themselves had a huge market 0:38:29.710,0:38:34.820 cap worth of billions or hundreds of 0:38:32.260,0:38:38.060 millions of dollars 0:38:34.820,0:38:42.280 and you also had a large amounts of the 0:38:38.060,0:38:46.640 coins being held and top 1% wallets and 0:38:42.280,0:38:50.750 I guess in ordered well yeah in order to 0:38:46.640,0:38:53.050 declare ourselves decentralized and make 0:38:50.750,0:38:55.370 these bold statements about 0:38:53.050,0:38:57.560 cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin in 0:38:55.370,0:39:01.970 particular we should try to achieve a 0:38:57.560,0:39:05.510 greater amount of adoption and also 0:39:01.970,0:39:07.490 realize that when we sell not 0:39:05.510,0:39:10.670 necessarily sell but when we buy stuff 0:39:07.490,0:39:13.880 online and they use bit pay for example 0:39:10.670,0:39:16.900 the money only makes people like Roger 0:39:13.880,0:39:16.900 Vere richer 0:39:17.040,0:39:21.570 yeah I mean the the hardcore bitcoiners 0:39:19.710,0:39:25.200 all definitely going to be a little bit 0:39:21.570,0:39:26.190 more political about how they shoes and 0:39:25.200,0:39:28.650 where they choose to spend their money 0:39:26.190,0:39:30.090 and to glow at services I mean if I'm 0:39:28.650,0:39:34.320 trying to buy something with Bitcoin I 0:39:30.090,0:39:38.930 see a bit pain or else I will know I 0:39:34.320,0:39:41.490 will not support but sometimes you know 0:39:38.930,0:39:42.630 it's people aren't really looking for 0:39:41.490,0:39:44.250 this kind of thing they aren't caring 0:39:42.630,0:39:46.020 they just want to pay they want to pay 0:39:44.250,0:39:48.990 with Bitcoin and they're willing to 0:39:46.020,0:39:51.619 install a bit pay compatible wallet in 0:39:48.990,0:39:56.400 order to comply with their protocol this 0:39:51.619,0:39:58.080 I don't know it's it's hard it's hard to 0:39:56.400,0:40:00.869 get everybody on the same page hard to 0:39:58.080,0:40:02.900 get everybody educated I don't know how 0:40:00.869,0:40:04.859 important it is necessarily but 0:40:02.900,0:40:07.440 centralization is something that is 0:40:04.859,0:40:10.619 there's no way to measure it perfectly 0:40:07.440,0:40:11.910 and you only really need honestly you 0:40:10.619,0:40:15.410 only need things to be decentralized 0:40:11.910,0:40:20.430 enough for the moment I said this in a 0:40:15.410,0:40:23.130 another interview about how applications 0:40:20.430,0:40:27.690 for all coins well they're just fine for 0:40:23.130,0:40:29.460 sending a value over a blockchain in a 0:40:27.690,0:40:31.530 moment you know you only have to trust 0:40:29.460,0:40:33.300 them while you're using them and this is 0:40:31.530,0:40:35.280 why bitcoin ends up being the best store 0:40:33.300,0:40:37.830 value because you know you can trust it 0:40:35.280,0:40:39.780 for a longer amount of time you don't 0:40:37.830,0:40:41.250 really want to store value and in the 0:40:39.780,0:40:43.140 latest new shit coin because it might 0:40:41.250,0:40:44.670 not be around tomorrow but if you want 0:40:43.140,0:40:47.340 to transfer value and you want to 0:40:44.670,0:40:48.720 transfer value that is low enough 0:40:47.340,0:40:51.030 liquidity where you won't have a lot of 0:40:48.720,0:40:52.140 slippage on the other ends well it works 0:40:51.030,0:40:53.970 just fine doesn't it 0:40:52.140,0:40:56.820 you know if I want to send you $50 of 0:40:53.970,0:40:59.490 dogecoin and I want to send it to you 0:40:56.820,0:41:02.340 today and you want to sell it today it 0:40:59.490,0:41:05.160 will work you know but if I want to 0:41:02.340,0:41:08.340 store you know fifty thousand dollars in 0:41:05.160,0:41:09.570 dogecoin well for how long how much 0:41:08.340,0:41:11.850 stress do I really want to put in that 0:41:09.570,0:41:13.920 protocol how long is it how strong do 0:41:11.850,0:41:18.720 you think this mean coin really is you 0:41:13.920,0:41:21.090 know yeah and I guess this dispels all 0:41:18.720,0:41:23.900 that narrative that Bitcoin should first 0:41:21.090,0:41:26.640 and foremost be a mean of exchange as 0:41:23.900,0:41:30.130 this can be accomplished through all 0:41:26.640,0:41:32.710 these alt coins like litecoin and - coin 0:41:30.130,0:41:36.250 and whatnot you have all these Forks 0:41:32.710,0:41:40.089 which are much more efficient at 0:41:36.250,0:41:43.809 transferring money with a low fee across 0:41:40.089,0:41:45.250 the world yeah I don't know I mean you 0:41:43.809,0:41:46.390 might be right in calling them much more 0:41:45.250,0:41:48.339 efficient it just wouldn't be my 0:41:46.390,0:41:51.630 preferred way of putting it there 0:41:48.339,0:41:51.630 they're certainly effective 0:41:51.690,0:41:57.220 proportionally or relatively like I said 0:41:55.059,0:41:58.900 if you wanted to send even if you wanted 0:41:57.220,0:42:01.630 to send $50,000 0:41:58.900,0:42:03.549 dogecoin you might have more trouble you 0:42:01.630,0:42:05.619 might have some slippage when you go to 0:42:03.549,0:42:07.390 sell that buy it and sell it on the 0:42:05.619,0:42:10.539 other end you know you might have more 0:42:07.390,0:42:13.480 risk maybe that day you send it 2,000 is 0:42:10.539,0:42:16.059 the day those coin dies you know the 0:42:13.480,0:42:18.730 bigger value you win the bigger trust 0:42:16.059,0:42:20.740 you put on a shit coin the bigger target 0:42:18.730,0:42:24.099 you put on that shit coin to be attacked 0:42:20.740,0:42:26.470 so you know Bitcoin first and foremost 0:42:24.099,0:42:30.849 in my opinion it's not about it being a 0:42:26.470,0:42:32.950 store of value or necessarily a way of 0:42:30.849,0:42:35.619 exchanging value first and foremost it 0:42:32.950,0:42:37.869 used to be censorship resistant it's the 0:42:35.619,0:42:39.970 whole point you know you the only thing 0:42:37.869,0:42:41.980 that Bitcoin is supposed to do is 0:42:39.970,0:42:44.140 mitigate the middleman it's supposed to 0:42:41.980,0:42:46.690 take something that usually required 0:42:44.140,0:42:49.599 trusts and remove the requirement for 0:42:46.690,0:42:51.730 that trust and so as long as Bitcoin is 0:42:49.599,0:42:54.190 doing that and staying cryptographically 0:42:51.730,0:42:55.990 sound you're always it's always going to 0:42:54.190,0:42:59.099 be the best place to store value and 0:42:55.990,0:43:01.960 save my long-term and then hopefully 0:42:59.099,0:43:04.359 we're you know developers will continue 0:43:01.960,0:43:06.069 to provide scaling improvements and 0:43:04.359,0:43:09.519 optimizations that will allow it to also 0:43:06.069,0:43:11.619 be the best way to send money send money 0:43:09.519,0:43:13.660 quickly the cheapest way to send money 0:43:11.619,0:43:16.869 hopefully we have all that - through 0:43:13.660,0:43:18.910 things like lightning so you're sticking 0:43:16.869,0:43:21.880 to the narrative where it's your former 0:43:18.910,0:43:25.529 President Barack Obama mentioned where 0:43:21.880,0:43:25.529 the Swiss bank in her pocket 0:43:25.890,0:43:29.650 what how is that the narratives for 0:43:28.299,0:43:32.410 spanking your pocket I mean I think 0:43:29.650,0:43:34.900 Swiss banking it it was a good meme it 0:43:32.410,0:43:37.059 was a good little cute little phrasing 0:43:34.900,0:43:39.819 but I don't actually even know it needs 0:43:37.059,0:43:42.160 to be honest oh I'm not sure anyone 0:43:39.819,0:43:44.440 knows what it means and I said people 0:43:42.160,0:43:47.410 using it have actually had a Swiss bank 0:43:44.440,0:43:49.990 account to figure out what that implies 0:43:47.410,0:43:52.509 but I know for a fact that Barack Obama 0:43:49.990,0:43:55.950 has mentioned it in one of his yeah is 0:43:52.509,0:43:59.920 in which he was calling for greater 0:43:55.950,0:44:02.140 regulation for Bitcoin and I don't think 0:43:59.920,0:44:04.170 I mean but it's not true it's not a 0:44:02.140,0:44:07.059 Swiss bank account in your pocket yeah 0:44:04.170,0:44:09.190 that concept doesn't even make sense you 0:44:07.059,0:44:12.670 know the reason why Swiss banks were 0:44:09.190,0:44:15.099 useful or notable as as an idea at all 0:44:12.670,0:44:17.499 had nothing to do with withholding money 0:44:15.099,0:44:21.309 yourself they had to do with putting it 0:44:17.499,0:44:23.700 in a centralized party's hands that was 0:44:21.309,0:44:27.249 able to provide a certain amount of 0:44:23.700,0:44:29.470 geographic regulatory arbitrage so as to 0:44:27.249,0:44:32.739 make you feel like you had at least a 0:44:29.470,0:44:34.569 temporary illusion of a safe haven for 0:44:32.739,0:44:38.109 your money but even that went away 0:44:34.569,0:44:39.279 didn't it oh yes and you can see it in 0:44:38.109,0:44:41.710 the wolf of Wall Street 0:44:39.279,0:44:43.480 if you're into movies so what's the joke 0:44:41.710,0:44:45.880 maybe Obama was actually just trying to 0:44:43.480,0:44:47.920 be more more sarcastic than people 0:44:45.880,0:44:49.509 realize maybe he was trying to say Oh 0:44:47.920,0:44:51.220 bitcoin is a Swiss bank account you 0:44:49.509,0:44:55.289 pocket because it's something everybody 0:44:51.220,0:44:57.400 thinks is safe but really isn't maybe 0:44:55.289,0:45:00.670 but I don't think it's a coincidence 0:44:57.400,0:45:05.650 that the bull run started after Trump 0:45:00.670,0:45:08.170 won the elections as he had by he had 0:45:05.650,0:45:11.079 both chambers of Congress on his side 0:45:08.170,0:45:14.259 both of the more Republican and usually 0:45:11.079,0:45:17.710 Republicans are much less inclined to 0:45:14.259,0:45:22.180 start regulating everything they are 0:45:17.710,0:45:25.569 bigger fans of free markets and I mean I 0:45:22.180,0:45:27.309 don't know I mean I won't agree with you 0:45:25.569,0:45:29.710 but I don't have any evidence to 0:45:27.309,0:45:31.869 disagree with you either I just don't 0:45:29.710,0:45:33.670 it's not just not what I would pick the 0:45:31.869,0:45:36.130 Berlin I think the bull run was just a 0:45:33.670,0:45:38.830 feedback loop and the feedback loop 0:45:36.130,0:45:42.280 becomes kind of exacerbated when you 0:45:38.830,0:45:44.830 have traders reporting against movement 0:45:42.280,0:45:46.210 and then the more that you know the more 0:45:44.830,0:45:47.920 the price goes up the more those traders 0:45:46.210,0:45:50.740 keep trying to call the top and keep 0:45:47.920,0:45:52.390 having to get their stops run and losing 0:45:50.740,0:45:54.010 money and having to rebuy Bitcoin at a 0:45:52.390,0:45:56.350 higher price because all these people 0:45:54.010,0:45:58.870 most of these people is shorting Bitcoin 0:45:56.350,0:46:00.550 and betting against it a lot of them 0:45:58.870,0:46:01.870 actually we're bitcoiners at heart and 0:46:00.550,0:46:04.480 we're just trying to make more Bitcoin 0:46:01.870,0:46:07.570 so this so from the trading standpoint 0:46:04.480,0:46:10.090 the the feedback loop just kind of keeps 0:46:07.570,0:46:11.410 getting harder and harder and then the 0:46:10.090,0:46:13.810 more the price goes up the more the 0:46:11.410,0:46:15.220 media pays attention the more the media 0:46:13.810,0:46:17.410 pays attention the more people think 0:46:15.220,0:46:20.380 they have FOMO and they don't want to 0:46:17.410,0:46:22.630 miss out on this kind of phenomenon it 0:46:20.380,0:46:24.870 bubble and then eventually it gets to 0:46:22.630,0:46:28.270 the point where you reach the top and 0:46:24.870,0:46:31.270 everybody buys the most Bitcoin at the 0:46:28.270,0:46:34.660 worst price on at the kind of pinnacle 0:46:31.270,0:46:36.910 moment and then things deflate and and 0:46:34.660,0:46:39.690 we can we come back to earth and recover 0:46:36.910,0:46:42.850 and get ready for the next feedback loop 0:46:39.690,0:46:45.370 no I guess what I mentioned was just the 0:46:42.850,0:46:49.540 correlation which isn't always a 0:46:45.370,0:46:51.270 causation but it's just an observation 0:46:49.540,0:46:53.290 and I guess causation and you could be 0:46:51.270,0:46:59.110 correlation it might actually happen 0:46:53.290,0:47:01.660 right yeah right and but maybe it just 0:46:59.110,0:47:05.680 made investors feel much more confident 0:47:01.660,0:47:09.040 that they would not see the kind of 0:47:05.680,0:47:13.330 regulations which interfere with their 0:47:09.040,0:47:16.090 plans hmm there may be also is a better 0:47:13.330,0:47:16.510 underlying correlation to what caused 0:47:16.090,0:47:19.030 that 0:47:16.510,0:47:22.480 for example maybe what really happened 0:47:19.030,0:47:25.150 was the wave of quantitative easing on 0:47:22.480,0:47:27.790 stock buying or inflation of money 0:47:25.150,0:47:30.580 printing was something that was still 0:47:27.790,0:47:33.160 you know echoing throughout the economy 0:47:30.580,0:47:35.800 and there was just too many dollars out 0:47:33.160,0:47:38.770 there too much you know too much money 0:47:35.800,0:47:41.350 that that was able to be spent you know 0:47:38.770,0:47:43.060 with without discretion and just able to 0:47:41.350,0:47:45.850 be invested instead of having to be 0:47:43.060,0:47:46.960 spent on you know day-to-day needs and 0:47:45.850,0:47:48.820 so people had to put their money 0:47:46.960,0:47:50.260 somewhere and they certainly didn't want 0:47:48.820,0:47:52.210 to hold it in cash because it was 0:47:50.260,0:47:53.740 rapidly inflating so 0:47:52.210,0:47:56.650 just people just started speculating 0:47:53.740,0:47:58.450 harder than ever and that bled out into 0:47:56.650,0:48:00.210 stocks and Bitcoin and everything that's 0:47:58.450,0:48:04.119 why the bull ride happened I don't know 0:48:00.210,0:48:08.589 yeah but I guess 2018 was the best year 0:48:04.119,0:48:10.980 for the stock market as we saw Apple hit 0:48:08.589,0:48:15.670 the trillion dollar mark and Amazon 0:48:10.980,0:48:18.220 almost reach it and we we pretty much 0:48:15.670,0:48:23.140 witnessed all-time highs all across the 0:48:18.220,0:48:25.810 board in the stock exchange well I think 0:48:23.140,0:48:28.480 that people are using stocks I think 0:48:25.810,0:48:30.220 it's very dangerous and this is 0:48:28.480,0:48:31.720 something I hope that coin cures 0:48:30.220,0:48:34.210 I think the coin will caused a lot of 0:48:31.720,0:48:35.710 pain when it does cure this but I think 0:48:34.210,0:48:38.560 people are looking for stores of value 0:48:35.710,0:48:40.750 and I think that because of the 0:48:38.560,0:48:43.660 performance of the stock market and 0:48:40.750,0:48:45.609 maybe some commodities as well that 0:48:43.660,0:48:50.920 people are now they're they're becoming 0:48:45.609,0:48:53.140 much more comfortable with with putting 0:48:50.920,0:48:54.400 their money into things that that you 0:48:53.140,0:48:57.010 would normally wouldn't put them into 0:48:54.400,0:48:58.780 normally you would buy stock in the 0:48:57.010,0:49:00.869 business because you think that the 0:48:58.780,0:49:04.420 success of that business will have a 0:49:00.869,0:49:07.480 very tightly correlated performance to 0:49:04.420,0:49:09.099 its price its value as a company but you 0:49:07.480,0:49:14.410 know people are evaluating these stocks 0:49:09.099,0:49:15.369 at a you know revenues going 200 300 0:49:14.410,0:49:18.790 years into the future 0:49:15.369,0:49:20.950 I mean maybe Amazon and Apple and these 0:49:18.790,0:49:22.750 companies will be around 200 years but 0:49:20.950,0:49:24.160 come on that's really how you want to 0:49:22.750,0:49:27.070 invest you want to you want to evaluate 0:49:24.160,0:49:28.960 this company based off of you know you 0:49:27.070,0:49:33.609 being dead three T's up three times over 0:49:28.960,0:49:35.560 it seems a little bit much so I think 0:49:33.609,0:49:37.690 that Bitcoin will eventually prove that 0:49:35.560,0:49:40.030 it is a better store value and it will 0:49:37.690,0:49:44.140 start sucking some of the the cream out 0:49:40.030,0:49:45.280 of these these assets that people are 0:49:44.140,0:49:47.230 choosing to store their value and 0:49:45.280,0:49:50.200 instead of in dollars you know I think 0:49:47.230,0:49:53.920 that I'd like to see Bitcoin basically 0:49:50.200,0:49:57.430 kill most of the speculative store value 0:49:53.920,0:49:59.770 value on gold and and some of the other 0:49:57.430,0:50:02.320 metals I'd like to see it bring stock 0:49:59.770,0:50:05.410 market valuations to be more reasonable 0:50:02.320,0:50:07.480 and maybe you know people are thinking 0:50:05.410,0:50:11.290 at least no further than one lifespan 0:50:07.480,0:50:14.830 into the future and how they evaluate a 0:50:11.290,0:50:17.470 company but we'll see you're very 0:50:14.830,0:50:21.610 educated and this field John what's your 0:50:17.470,0:50:23.740 background did you do finance no not 0:50:21.610,0:50:25.060 really I mean I've been involved with 0:50:23.740,0:50:27.010 some people in the finance I've done 0:50:25.060,0:50:30.700 some trading in the past on stock market 0:50:27.010,0:50:32.620 and within crypto but I've had mmm I've 0:50:30.700,0:50:34.660 been lucky to have some very very smart 0:50:32.620,0:50:37.510 friends with some very very good 0:50:34.660,0:50:41.320 experience on both on the programming 0:50:37.510,0:50:43.780 side on the crypto side also in finance 0:50:41.320,0:50:45.730 economics but now I have no special 0:50:43.780,0:50:50.290 education other than education I 0:50:45.730,0:50:52.500 speaking on my own that's impressive do 0:50:50.290,0:50:55.780 you have a college degree and something 0:50:52.500,0:50:59.590 nope when I was in high school I wanted 0:50:55.780,0:51:01.870 to be a comic book artist that was what 0:50:59.590,0:51:04.210 I saw for my future and then once I 0:51:01.870,0:51:06.010 actually got out of high school well at 0:51:04.210,0:51:10.210 some point I school I was in a punk rock 0:51:06.010,0:51:12.550 band and the I decided that uh I would 0:51:10.210,0:51:15.730 start a record label and I went to 0:51:12.550,0:51:19.240 college and went to University of 0:51:15.730,0:51:22.660 Massachusetts and I about one semester 0:51:19.240,0:51:24.520 in I decided I didn't want to go anymore 0:51:22.660,0:51:26.800 I felt like I was paying to go to high 0:51:24.520,0:51:28.750 school honestly I was going at the time 0:51:26.800,0:51:31.300 I was going for illustration and 0:51:28.750,0:51:35.620 advertising design and I just decided to 0:51:31.300,0:51:37.900 withdraw start my record label I got a 0:51:35.620,0:51:41.440 job working at a newspaper doing graphic 0:51:37.900,0:51:45.310 design and I basically got paid to learn 0:51:41.440,0:51:47.530 how to do my career instead of paying 0:51:45.310,0:51:49.120 for it so I spent a lot of time in the 0:51:47.530,0:51:50.650 graphic design field eventually 0:51:49.120,0:51:53.560 marketing and more communications 0:51:50.650,0:51:55.480 project management specialized large 0:51:53.560,0:52:00.670 format printing and all kinds of related 0:51:55.480,0:52:02.770 things Google AdWords cetera but I'm I'm 0:52:00.670,0:52:05.740 happy with what I did because I feel 0:52:02.770,0:52:08.080 like if I had stayed in college those 0:52:05.740,0:52:10.840 four years and and come out with some 0:52:08.080,0:52:11.860 kind of media or design degree I don't 0:52:10.840,0:52:13.320 think I actually would have been any 0:52:11.860,0:52:15.330 better off than 0:52:13.320,0:52:18.330 getting paid to just have a job and 0:52:15.330,0:52:20.850 learn it on the job instead that's an 0:52:18.330,0:52:23.280 interesting point of view and it's 0:52:20.850,0:52:25.950 fascinating how in Bitcoin you have 0:52:23.280,0:52:27.710 people from different fields coming 0:52:25.950,0:52:32.820 together and learning more about 0:52:27.710,0:52:35.910 economics and technology and perfecting 0:52:32.820,0:52:38.010 their argumentation skills because 0:52:35.910,0:52:40.590 you're very articulate when you speak 0:52:38.010,0:52:43.860 but at the same time you didn't it's and 0:52:40.590,0:52:49.620 this type of oratory classes or anything 0:52:43.860,0:52:52.740 which deals with actual PR no I mean 0:52:49.620,0:52:54.390 well this is partially because I was 0:52:52.740,0:52:56.640 been on the internet for a long time 0:52:54.390,0:53:00.660 since the early days and also partially 0:52:56.640,0:53:02.910 from my own family culture which is we 0:53:00.660,0:53:04.380 were when you're from Massachusetts we 0:53:02.910,0:53:06.750 people call us Massholes 0:53:04.380,0:53:11.370 we have a little bit higher tolerance 0:53:06.750,0:53:13.380 for arguing about emotion and being more 0:53:11.370,0:53:15.840 about who can make the better argument 0:53:13.380,0:53:18.270 so there's a little bit of debate it's 0:53:15.840,0:53:20.460 going to learn just by being from where 0:53:18.270,0:53:22.740 I'm from and then within my family 0:53:20.460,0:53:25.470 itself it was kind of the dynamic was 0:53:22.740,0:53:27.840 you know if you could argue your way out 0:53:25.470,0:53:29.340 of something with my parents they would 0:53:27.840,0:53:31.140 give up and they would say well I don't 0:53:29.340,0:53:34.080 you know there was no through this 0:53:31.140,0:53:35.520 because I told you so it's you know what 0:53:34.080,0:53:37.590 do you mean you told me so explain it to 0:53:35.520,0:53:39.840 me why should I do this if I can do that 0:53:37.590,0:53:43.170 and eventually you could wear them down 0:53:39.840,0:53:46.680 and get you away you know so we had to 0:53:43.170,0:53:50.850 become a little bit skilled at debating 0:53:46.680,0:53:53.760 and because there was a sentence no 0:53:50.850,0:53:57.590 oldest training to be able to would 0:53:53.760,0:54:00.390 stand and face rod servire in a debate 0:53:57.590,0:54:02.370 yeah well I did I did prepare I'm not 0:54:00.390,0:54:05.370 gonna lie I prepared a lot I watched all 0:54:02.370,0:54:07.800 of his recent videos I learned his you 0:54:05.370,0:54:09.900 know his other was a great to be Adam 0:54:07.800,0:54:11.850 back I read yesterday about how he 0:54:09.900,0:54:14.730 described what what Rogers debate style 0:54:11.850,0:54:17.730 was but basically learned his his party 0:54:14.730,0:54:19.230 line and was prepared I knew how you 0:54:17.730,0:54:22.050 would answer certain things I knew how 0:54:19.230,0:54:24.180 he would try to evade and sidestep you 0:54:22.050,0:54:25.650 know got a good feel for him and I did 0:54:24.180,0:54:26.880 prepare it was like it was kind of I 0:54:25.650,0:54:28.560 felt like going 0:54:26.880,0:54:31.320 into some kind of boxing match I 0:54:28.560,0:54:33.630 remember beforehand like you know like 0:54:31.320,0:54:35.220 taking deep breaths and you know 0:54:33.630,0:54:37.320 meditating a little bit because I want 0:54:35.220,0:54:39.270 to focus and make sure like I gave 0:54:37.320,0:54:41.400 everybody the interview they wanted I 0:54:39.270,0:54:42.410 think it did okay and I think we're 0:54:41.400,0:54:45.210 happy with it 0:54:42.410,0:54:46.620 but it was it's not easy dealing with 0:54:45.210,0:54:49.920 that guy you know if somebody was 0:54:46.620,0:54:53.250 willing to make a bold-faced lie and be 0:54:49.920,0:54:57.030 a hypocrite and still be unaffected by 0:54:53.250,0:54:58.770 it emotionally you have to write it's 0:54:57.030,0:55:03.030 not easy to deal with somebody that 0:54:58.770,0:55:04.830 won't play by rules but that moment when 0:55:03.030,0:55:07.950 he started saying be cash because be 0:55:04.830,0:55:08.400 cash and he got enraged was it part of 0:55:07.950,0:55:11.250 the plan 0:55:08.400,0:55:15.180 or did he just annoy you so much that he 0:55:11.250,0:55:16.830 wants it to hurt him I've got that I've 0:55:15.180,0:55:18.270 people had asked me questions like this 0:55:16.830,0:55:19.650 law I've actually had more than one 0:55:18.270,0:55:21.750 person asked me if the whole thing was 0:55:19.650,0:55:24.210 scripted if me he and I didn't plan 0:55:21.750,0:55:27.090 whole thing the way it went no there was 0:55:24.210,0:55:28.710 no planning that I did not know I was 0:55:27.090,0:55:30.780 gonna do that or that he was gonna flip 0:55:28.710,0:55:33.750 me off the closest thing I can tell you 0:55:30.780,0:55:35.670 to being any kind of planning was that I 0:55:33.750,0:55:38.490 did feel like he was telegraphing me a 0:55:35.670,0:55:40.380 bit when he warned when you said to me 0:55:38.490,0:55:43.140 if you say this again I'm gonna quit 0:55:40.380,0:55:46.260 what I heard in the back of my head was 0:55:43.140,0:55:49.290 John I'm really uncomfortable with how 0:55:46.260,0:55:51.330 I'm not able to win this interview and 0:55:49.290,0:55:54.660 and I'm uncommon and I feel like you're 0:55:51.330,0:55:57.240 going to make me want to quit soon so if 0:55:54.660,0:55:59.700 you if you do if you say be cash again 0:55:57.240,0:56:01.650 you know it will give me a reason to end 0:55:59.700,0:56:03.720 this interview and I would like that 0:56:01.650,0:56:05.340 that was kind of what I heard in the 0:56:03.720,0:56:07.560 back of my head and so I was actually 0:56:05.340,0:56:08.790 trying not to say it you know if you go 0:56:07.560,0:56:11.280 back and you watch that interview I said 0:56:08.790,0:56:15.510 Bitcoin cash properly at least a dozen 0:56:11.280,0:56:18.300 times but the third time I said it by a 0:56:15.510,0:56:19.680 mistake I was honest I said you know I'm 0:56:18.300,0:56:21.450 just saying it out of habit I'm just 0:56:19.680,0:56:23.610 saying it because it's easy I was not 0:56:21.450,0:56:25.860 trying to troll him in any way 0:56:23.610,0:56:28.650 once he flipped me off though is like 0:56:25.860,0:56:30.060 okay it was like the gloves were off I 0:56:28.650,0:56:32.580 was just saying okay this guy is not 0:56:30.060,0:56:33.990 going to respect any type of human 0:56:32.580,0:56:36.930 interaction with me right now 0:56:33.990,0:56:38.450 he's not going to take me seriously or 0:56:36.930,0:56:40.220 answer my questions 0:56:38.450,0:56:41.799 and he's certainly not respected me in 0:56:40.220,0:56:45.230 any way so fuck him 0:56:41.799,0:56:47.089 and I thought of okay what what can I do 0:56:45.230,0:56:49.190 to just trigger him on my way out and 0:56:47.089,0:56:51.470 get a little laugh out of this so I just 0:56:49.190,0:56:52.940 a little B cash dance but he was the one 0:56:51.470,0:56:55.609 that ended it he was the one that took 0:56:52.940,0:56:57.920 it to the no disrespectful level of it 0:56:55.609,0:56:59.059 being an absurd interview I was trying 0:56:57.920,0:57:01.910 to have a normal interview with him 0:56:59.059,0:57:04.569 trying to refute his arguments and he 0:57:01.910,0:57:08.030 was just busy being preoccupied with 0:57:04.569,0:57:10.309 stupid nicknames you know it's 0:57:08.030,0:57:12.470 interesting that I don't think he's the 0:57:10.309,0:57:16.849 only one who does this in this space but 0:57:12.470,0:57:19.460 he is the most effective he he has his 0:57:16.849,0:57:22.400 way around it and he tried it I've seen 0:57:19.460,0:57:26.150 him talk to the tone vase during that 0:57:22.400,0:57:28.819 boat trip whatever and also with Charlie 0:57:26.150,0:57:31.339 Lee and his tactic is to make you feel 0:57:28.819,0:57:34.460 uncomfortable to get some kind of 0:57:31.339,0:57:37.819 personal attack out there so you feel 0:57:34.460,0:57:40.670 like you should step back and allow him 0:57:37.819,0:57:43.099 to go on with his narrative and he 0:57:40.670,0:57:45.589 constantly makes you agree with stuff he 0:57:43.099,0:57:51.290 asks you stuff like do you agree that 0:57:45.589,0:57:54.109 back in 2015 Bitcoin had a dominance of 0:57:51.290,0:57:57.260 over 90% and you're going to say yes and 0:57:54.109,0:58:00.829 then he's going to make a consequential 0:57:57.260,0:58:02.930 argument about how the failure to 0:58:00.829,0:58:06.559 increase the block size is what caused 0:58:02.930,0:58:08.750 the dominance to decrease as if Bitcoin 0:58:06.559,0:58:10.819 is in a void and it has nothing to do 0:58:08.750,0:58:13.220 with the fact that cerium emerged and 0:58:10.819,0:58:15.319 lots of projects were launched from it 0:58:13.220,0:58:19.339 and lots of speculators then big money 0:58:15.319,0:58:22.099 got into it silicon project yeah they're 0:58:19.339,0:58:23.180 I don't know I'm gonna stink this out 0:58:22.099,0:58:26.030 louder so I don't know if it will come 0:58:23.180,0:58:30.200 out right but I think that there are 0:58:26.030,0:58:33.559 probably two ways to completely ruin any 0:58:30.200,0:58:36.049 honest debate and a grand sense this is 0:58:33.559,0:58:38.869 either to zoom at zoom out so far that 0:58:36.049,0:58:40.670 nothing means anything so no matter what 0:58:38.869,0:58:43.099 you say they just keep zooming out and 0:58:40.670,0:58:44.809 they just until everything you could 0:58:43.099,0:58:47.630 possibly ever say is just irrelevant and 0:58:44.809,0:58:49.790 including even being alive and the 0:58:47.630,0:58:51.859 meaning of life zoom out there's some 0:58:49.790,0:58:53.779 people assume out as far as they have to 0:58:51.859,0:58:56.960 just not agree with you and then then 0:58:53.779,0:58:59.150 you can also zoom in so close that you 0:58:56.960,0:59:01.220 reduce the paradigm of your argument to 0:58:59.150,0:59:05.059 being so small that you can't win 0:59:01.220,0:59:06.769 because there's only a a or B or a black 0:59:05.059,0:59:08.779 and white choice and because he's 0:59:06.769,0:59:11.450 reduced paradigm to only this little 0:59:08.779,0:59:14.299 segment of reality he's trying to make 0:59:11.450,0:59:16.400 itself look right within this very small 0:59:14.299,0:59:17.809 segment so every time you're arguing 0:59:16.400,0:59:20.269 with somebody like this you have to try 0:59:17.809,0:59:22.279 to bring them back to you know what is 0:59:20.269,0:59:23.930 actually a reasonable paradigm you know 0:59:22.279,0:59:25.849 what is a paradigm close enough to 0:59:23.930,0:59:27.140 reality that we can actually work with 0:59:25.849,0:59:29.900 that's actually useful for the people 0:59:27.140,0:59:32.269 that are listening but still a paradigm 0:59:29.900,0:59:35.299 that because if you remove all the rules 0:59:32.269,0:59:36.529 entirely then it's pointless but if you 0:59:35.299,0:59:40.460 reduce them too much it's all so 0:59:36.529,0:59:43.730 pointless you know I've actually read it 0:59:40.460,0:59:46.400 3d on how to argue and how to debate 0:59:43.730,0:59:49.039 which was written by Aristotle but I 0:59:46.400,0:59:54.039 don't think any paragraph of that whole 0:59:49.039,0:59:57.099 book actually made it so clear as to how 0:59:54.039,0:59:59.900 you can actually make the debate 0:59:57.099,1:00:04.039 irrelevant and how you can actually give 0:59:59.900,1:00:06.230 the sense that you're winning I get this 1:00:04.039,1:00:07.789 from experience I'll tell you you know 1:00:06.230,1:00:09.859 working with Roger there trying to 1:00:07.789,1:00:11.239 debate with him and how you describe him 1:00:09.859,1:00:13.369 with other people 1:00:11.239,1:00:16.730 he seems like somebody that's reducing 1:00:13.369,1:00:19.670 things to a paradigm that is absurd but 1:00:16.730,1:00:22.099 has so few rules that he can try to make 1:00:19.670,1:00:24.220 himself look sensible but I've also 1:00:22.099,1:00:27.440 argued with people like say Chris DeRose 1:00:24.220,1:00:29.180 from Bitcoin uncensored where he will 1:00:27.440,1:00:31.400 make think he will try to make you sound 1:00:29.180,1:00:33.259 absurd so just keep zooming further and 1:00:31.400,1:00:36.170 further out so we're basically there's 1:00:33.259,1:00:37.759 just this narcissistic paradigm of where 1:00:36.170,1:00:39.920 nothing means anything anymore and 1:00:37.759,1:00:41.599 you're just like well how am I supposed 1:00:39.920,1:00:46.090 to argue with you if we're not gonna 1:00:41.599,1:00:49.540 establish at least some kind of paradigm 1:00:46.090,1:00:51.670 yeah I guess this kind of education 1:00:49.540,1:00:53.770 should be mandatory for bitcoiners so 1:00:51.670,1:00:56.260 they learn how to stay away from scams 1:00:53.770,1:00:58.690 and how to not be persuaded into 1:00:56.260,1:01:01.030 something but getting scammed and 1:00:58.690,1:01:04.030 becoming a scammer has been around for 1:01:01.030,1:01:07.120 thousands of years so this is not going 1:01:04.030,1:01:09.400 to go away in any form yeah I can give 1:01:07.120,1:01:12.100 it up very easy rule of thumb just be 1:01:09.400,1:01:14.620 skeptical of everything and everyone in 1:01:12.100,1:01:16.060 this space and you'll know the 1:01:14.620,1:01:19.000 difference of when you're being too 1:01:16.060,1:01:21.990 skeptical because sometimes you'll be so 1:01:19.000,1:01:25.480 so so so skeptical that you will become 1:01:21.990,1:01:27.790 kind of knee-jerk contrarian and you'll 1:01:25.480,1:01:29.380 start feeling stupid because you 50 1:01:27.790,1:01:31.810 people will have answers that you're 1:01:29.380,1:01:33.310 like oh shit I'm being too skeptical I 1:01:31.810,1:01:35.170 feel a little bit stupid right now and 1:01:33.310,1:01:37.420 then you'll learn where that kind of 1:01:35.170,1:01:39.880 where that side of the line is and then 1:01:37.420,1:01:40.990 other times most of the time people are 1:01:39.880,1:01:43.150 saying dumb shit 1:01:40.990,1:01:47.040 and so being skeptical is actually a 1:01:43.150,1:01:50.020 pretty high efficiency high winrate 1:01:47.040,1:01:51.460 behavior because most of the time people 1:01:50.020,1:01:53.860 are saying things that either people 1:01:51.460,1:01:55.750 have already said before our bad ideas 1:01:53.860,1:01:58.330 or they're just trying to scam your scam 1:01:55.750,1:02:03.310 themselves so skeptical skepticism has a 1:01:58.330,1:02:06.130 pretty good about skepticism I was about 1:02:03.310,1:02:09.400 to ask you about block stream and how it 1:02:06.130,1:02:13.150 has become maybe the ambassador for 1:02:09.400,1:02:15.460 Bitcoin and at least throughout the last 1:02:13.150,1:02:18.220 year they had so many successful or more 1:02:15.460,1:02:20.080 or less successful launches and have 1:02:18.220,1:02:22.420 developed some great tools which are 1:02:20.080,1:02:26.740 open sourced and they have some of the 1:02:22.420,1:02:28.330 best developers in the game and I agree 1:02:26.740,1:02:32.530 with some of that but definitely not all 1:02:28.330,1:02:33.850 of it okay go on I I think they do have 1:02:32.530,1:02:35.830 some of the best developers in the game 1:02:33.850,1:02:39.000 I think they have released some 1:02:35.830,1:02:40.810 successes and some cool things but 1:02:39.000,1:02:42.010 depending on how you look at them I 1:02:40.810,1:02:46.590 think there's a lot that you could 1:02:42.010,1:02:50.080 either criticize or or say could improve 1:02:46.590,1:02:53.110 they aren't making money as far as I can 1:02:50.080,1:02:55.300 tell so as a business which they are a 1:02:53.110,1:02:57.700 business to nonprofit organization um 1:02:55.300,1:02:58.940 this is something they chose so if they 1:02:57.700,1:03:00.650 are a business 1:02:58.940,1:03:03.530 trying to make money I don't think 1:03:00.650,1:03:06.650 they're doing very well at it as a 1:03:03.530,1:03:08.690 Bitcoin er you don't care right because 1:03:06.650,1:03:10.730 well you really care about as if they 1:03:08.690,1:03:12.319 are hoping Bitcoin yeah sure they're 1:03:10.730,1:03:14.660 helping Bitcoin they give us satellites 1:03:12.319,1:03:17.510 to give us a block or they gave us 1:03:14.660,1:03:19.520 sidechain technology and they're helping 1:03:17.510,1:03:21.790 with lightning Network technology and 1:03:19.520,1:03:28.130 things like this they're contributing 1:03:21.790,1:03:29.480 but I don't know I don't agree with all 1:03:28.130,1:03:31.460 of the technologies that they've chose 1:03:29.480,1:03:34.280 to put their time into I have a lot of 1:03:31.460,1:03:36.500 skepticism about sidechains I have a lot 1:03:34.280,1:03:38.030 of skepticism about liquid 1:03:36.500,1:03:40.700 I've actually interacted with block 1:03:38.030,1:03:43.190 stream representatives directly about my 1:03:40.700,1:03:45.890 skepticisms about liquid um going years 1:03:43.190,1:03:47.420 back and they've kind of pivoted and 1:03:45.890,1:03:50.140 what liquid was going to be from what 1:03:47.420,1:03:53.060 initially was and even now after 1:03:50.140,1:03:56.030 official release this still isn't really 1:03:53.060,1:03:58.430 that prevalent used and implemented and 1:03:56.030,1:04:02.210 I also question how much money it's 1:03:58.430,1:04:04.400 actually making them even as cemented so 1:04:02.210,1:04:06.680 I don't know if they're doing consulting 1:04:04.400,1:04:08.329 stuff on the side and making money that 1:04:06.680,1:04:10.490 way or what they're doing to stay alive 1:04:08.329,1:04:14.480 but they're going to have to eventually 1:04:10.490,1:04:16.250 have you know significant revenue to be 1:04:14.480,1:04:17.990 able to continue doing projects as 1:04:16.250,1:04:21.050 ambitious as they're they're 1:04:17.990,1:04:23.359 entertaining and as detached from 1:04:21.050,1:04:24.680 revenue as most of them are they're 1:04:23.359,1:04:27.500 gonna have to figure something out or 1:04:24.680,1:04:29.780 they won't survive maybe they held so 1:04:27.500,1:04:32.329 much Bitcoin from the start that they're 1:04:29.780,1:04:34.460 gonna be fine for quite a long time and 1:04:32.329,1:04:35.720 maybe I'm wrong be just because they 1:04:34.460,1:04:38.359 were they were smart enough to do that 1:04:35.720,1:04:40.520 because they did form pretty early and 1:04:38.359,1:04:43.910 they did make commitments to paying 1:04:40.520,1:04:46.130 people in Bitcoin value and holding the 1:04:43.910,1:04:47.660 coin I don't remember the details they 1:04:46.130,1:04:50.839 there was a time they get they shared 1:04:47.660,1:04:53.660 some details but they may have a lot of 1:04:50.839,1:04:56.480 Bitcoin okay just because of that but as 1:04:53.660,1:04:57.829 a business I don't see whether where the 1:04:56.480,1:05:00.920 revenue is coming from or what their 1:04:57.829,1:05:05.150 plan is for revenue the projects that 1:05:00.920,1:05:07.609 are more commercially aligned don't seem 1:05:05.150,1:05:10.339 to me to be good market fits maybe I'm 1:05:07.609,1:05:11.089 wrong but the stuff they're doing that's 1:05:10.339,1:05:13.609 just purely 1:05:11.089,1:05:16.219 for Bitcoin is great you know helping 1:05:13.609,1:05:18.729 with lightning helping make newest 1:05:16.219,1:05:21.650 access Bitcoin with satellites and 1:05:18.729,1:05:24.769 providing tools and that's all great you 1:05:21.650,1:05:28.239 know but those are non not profitable 1:05:24.769,1:05:31.369 those are kind of infrastructure so 1:05:28.239,1:05:33.319 maybe their business thesis which is 1:05:31.369,1:05:35.509 actually when I kind of agree with is 1:05:33.319,1:05:37.609 that the thesis is to hold as much 1:05:35.509,1:05:39.229 Bitcoin as possible and improve the 1:05:37.609,1:05:41.509 infrastructure as much as possible and 1:05:39.229,1:05:43.339 just hope that infrastructure 1:05:41.509,1:05:45.469 improvements will facilitate enough 1:05:43.339,1:05:47.420 appreciation and Bitcoin spending power 1:05:45.469,1:05:51.049 that they will exist for a long long 1:05:47.420,1:05:53.779 time it's not it's not a horrible thesis 1:05:51.049,1:05:55.249 not a horrible approach but I don't I 1:05:53.779,1:05:58.579 don't know if that's intentional or 1:05:55.249,1:06:01.869 their actual plan or not to me it's 1:05:58.579,1:06:05.930 interesting that if you read anything on 1:06:01.869,1:06:09.079 rbtc on reddit there's a lot of hatred 1:06:05.930,1:06:12.680 which is directed towards block stream 1:06:09.079,1:06:15.140 and some commentators points out that it 1:06:12.680,1:06:19.150 might just be the centralizing factor 1:06:15.140,1:06:24.619 which will bring Bitcoin to its demise 1:06:19.150,1:06:27.979 and it's hard to see how that means you 1:06:24.619,1:06:29.900 know I'm in what is block stream they 1:06:27.979,1:06:32.329 have some of the some of the major core 1:06:29.900,1:06:34.309 developers but they're not that big as 1:06:32.329,1:06:36.140 far as how many people work there they 1:06:34.309,1:06:38.299 do have some bigger names there but 1:06:36.140,1:06:40.579 they're not that big if Bach stream 1:06:38.299,1:06:42.499 function doesn't have a lot of control 1:06:40.579,1:06:46.390 over the protocol it doesn't have a lot 1:06:42.499,1:06:48.680 of influence over bitcoiners at large 1:06:46.390,1:06:50.809 yeah they have influence and yet people 1:06:48.680,1:06:52.339 know who they are but what is what how 1:06:50.809,1:06:55.609 are they what what power they actually 1:06:52.339,1:06:58.099 wielding honestly and do you really 1:06:55.609,1:07:03.680 think that if blog stream proposed 1:06:58.099,1:07:06.380 something that any respected scientists 1:07:03.680,1:07:08.989 or programmers or community members 1:07:06.380,1:07:10.249 outside of blockchain disagreed with do 1:07:08.989,1:07:11.599 you really think that it would still get 1:07:10.249,1:07:13.849 into the protocol that it would still 1:07:11.599,1:07:16.339 fly I don't think they have that power 1:07:13.849,1:07:18.109 well I think they're just somebody that 1:07:16.339,1:07:20.329 had that they carry a lot of reputation 1:07:18.109,1:07:22.800 and respect but I don't think they carry 1:07:20.329,1:07:25.990 a lot of power because of it 1:07:22.800,1:07:28.150 that's an interesting view and I guess 1:07:25.990,1:07:31.300 the Bitcoin cash people usually 1:07:28.150,1:07:33.850 mentioned that they are funded by the 1:07:31.300,1:07:36.160 New York Stock Exchange I think they 1:07:33.850,1:07:37.870 have felony yeah they say AXA you know 1:07:36.160,1:07:40.240 these they want to have this be like the 1:07:37.870,1:07:42.610 Bilderberg conspiracy theory I think 1:07:40.240,1:07:44.830 that he just does this because they need 1:07:42.610,1:07:47.920 some kind of narrative look I said this 1:07:44.830,1:07:50.590 in my last review with Peter everything 1:07:47.920,1:07:53.950 that is not Bitcoin has to paint itself 1:07:50.590,1:07:57.850 in a light in the context of Bitcoin so 1:07:53.950,1:07:59.470 this is just more proof that bitcoin is 1:07:57.850,1:08:02.410 the dominant thing and it is the thing 1:07:59.470,1:08:07.390 everybody wishes to unseat and and 1:08:02.410,1:08:10.000 wishes be so our BTC be cash Roger ver 1:08:07.390,1:08:11.920 once they have chosen to not support the 1:08:10.000,1:08:15.100 real Bitcoin they have to create 1:08:11.920,1:08:17.380 narratives that that terabit went down 1:08:15.100,1:08:20.680 so they're gonna create as many monsters 1:08:17.380,1:08:23.589 as they can they can dream of and if and 1:08:20.680,1:08:25.480 the easiest monsters to choose are the 1:08:23.589,1:08:28.120 ones with the people of the best 1:08:25.480,1:08:30.190 reputation so you want to they want to 1:08:28.120,1:08:32.589 destroy reputation they don't want 1:08:30.190,1:08:34.569 people to feel safe with Bitcoin so they 1:08:32.589,1:08:37.029 want to make Roger I mean they want to 1:08:34.569,1:08:40.240 make a Greg Maxwell look bad Adam back 1:08:37.029,1:08:42.940 with bad block stream look bad core look 1:08:40.240,1:08:46.540 bad they're gonna pick every single 1:08:42.940,1:08:48.220 thing that is respected and valued 1:08:46.540,1:08:51.549 within our community and they're going 1:08:48.220,1:08:54.220 to try to sell you it yeah that makes 1:08:51.549,1:08:57.940 sense and it's very political in this 1:08:54.220,1:09:00.370 regard when you have political regimes 1:08:57.940,1:09:02.950 they will always try to find the enemy 1:09:00.370,1:09:07.359 even in democracies you have political 1:09:02.950,1:09:10.240 parties and they turn their opposition 1:09:07.359,1:09:12.790 into monsters and they try to find lots 1:09:10.240,1:09:14.980 of reasons not to like them as human 1:09:12.790,1:09:19.060 beings even though they might be 1:09:14.980,1:09:23.759 professionally competent they find 1:09:19.060,1:09:23.759 external reasons to make them 1:09:24.480,1:09:29.040 like monsters and i right now fine but 1:09:26.880,1:09:32.130 isn't workers in this space and this 1:09:29.040,1:09:33.930 space people are much more light much 1:09:32.130,1:09:36.870 more tightly integrated with concepts 1:09:33.930,1:09:40.259 around merit and reputation and so when 1:09:36.870,1:09:42.859 you try to say oh this person is bad 1:09:40.259,1:09:45.870 because he deleted my thread on reddit 1:09:42.859,1:09:47.670 well there are plenty of people the 1:09:45.870,1:09:49.350 bitcoiners using reddit and the Bitcoin 1:09:47.670,1:09:51.390 here is using participating in social 1:09:49.350,1:09:54.120 media and Bitcoin they're just not that 1:09:51.390,1:09:56.870 stupid you know like they know reddit is 1:09:54.120,1:09:59.580 just a fucking forum and it completely 1:09:56.870,1:10:03.900 irrelevant in the grand scheme of things 1:09:59.580,1:10:06.000 to Bitcoin and the protocol and adoption 1:10:03.900,1:10:08.610 and you know and if Roger wants to have 1:10:06.000,1:10:10.950 if we can you know chip on his shoulder 1:10:08.610,1:10:13.950 because the one time he tried to she'll 1:10:10.950,1:10:18.210 be cash on our Bitcoin it got deleted 1:10:13.950,1:10:21.120 well it just makes him look worse yep 1:10:18.210,1:10:23.820 but in the grand scheme of things I 1:10:21.120,1:10:26.130 guess he only got richer he might have 1:10:23.820,1:10:29.040 lost with Bitcoin cash or be cash or 1:10:26.130,1:10:31.160 whatever and that might just crumble and 1:10:29.040,1:10:36.630 become irrelevant in a couple of years 1:10:31.160,1:10:37.650 but he still owns he invested and - he 1:10:36.630,1:10:40.920 invested in bitpay 1:10:37.650,1:10:43.590 he invested in lots of startups and 1:10:40.920,1:10:46.230 ventures like blockchain dot info which 1:10:43.590,1:10:49.070 turned into blockchain calm it's not 1:10:46.230,1:10:53.489 like he will ever run out of money and 1:10:49.070,1:10:55.170 he he founded lots of legitimate 1:10:53.489,1:10:57.510 projects 1:10:55.170,1:11:00.150 this is something I want to disagree 1:10:57.510,1:11:02.489 with you with I don't know for sure if 1:11:00.150,1:11:04.530 I'm right but I feel like conceptually 1:11:02.489,1:11:06.420 it's easy for me to dispute you on this 1:11:04.530,1:11:08.760 because of this reason I fundamentally 1:11:06.420,1:11:11.489 believe that trying to manipulate 1:11:08.760,1:11:14.429 markets is a very high friction and 1:11:11.489,1:11:17.760 expensive thing to do and when you are 1:11:14.429,1:11:19.980 trying to do something that goes against 1:11:17.760,1:11:21.449 what a market is naturally trying to do 1:11:19.980,1:11:23.880 and then the market is naturally trying 1:11:21.449,1:11:25.889 to be effective and efficient when you 1:11:23.880,1:11:28.290 were trying to introduce friction and 1:11:25.889,1:11:31.080 inefficiency into a market you do it at 1:11:28.290,1:11:33.210 your expense and the only way you can do 1:11:31.080,1:11:36.540 this outside of your own expense and 1:11:33.210,1:11:39.480 that is by exploiting the resources of 1:11:36.540,1:11:42.179 others and so yes Roger 1:11:39.480,1:11:45.179 probably did make money on this or that 1:11:42.179,1:11:48.239 of his choices may be on - may be gonna 1:11:45.179,1:11:51.659 be cash maybe on Bitcoin comm but every 1:11:48.239,1:11:53.850 time he has that that freefloat money he 1:11:51.659,1:11:57.000 is he is just spending it he's just 1:11:53.850,1:11:59.670 burning it trying to stop the train that 1:11:57.000,1:12:02.030 is Bitcoin but he's still just you know 1:11:59.670,1:12:04.469 a leaf on the track he's not actually 1:12:02.030,1:12:07.170 Superman standing in front of a train 1:12:04.469,1:12:09.840 he's just causing friction and that 1:12:07.170,1:12:13.800 friction will just burn away and amount 1:12:09.840,1:12:16.020 to nothing over time and so he only live 1:12:13.800,1:12:18.030 as long as his own resources and the 1:12:16.020,1:12:20.940 resources that he can exploit from other 1:12:18.030,1:12:22.949 people and the problem is the only 1:12:20.940,1:12:25.860 people that will allow him to exploit 1:12:22.949,1:12:28.139 them are people of lower resources 1:12:25.860,1:12:33.090 people either of lower intelligence of 1:12:28.139,1:12:35.790 lower moral integrity you know they're 1:12:33.090,1:12:39.179 all people that are unsustainable as 1:12:35.790,1:12:41.550 resources I hope this is my theory maybe 1:12:39.179,1:12:45.360 I'm wrong but I think that it's it's 1:12:41.550,1:12:48.659 it's a losing game and the the harder he 1:12:45.360,1:12:52.080 fights this game the bigger he he goes 1:12:48.659,1:12:54.300 in this fight the actual higher risk and 1:12:52.080,1:12:56.730 lower time he's going to be able to do 1:12:54.300,1:13:00.000 it and I really believe that he went he 1:12:56.730,1:13:02.550 went he went really hard with Bitcoin 1:13:00.000,1:13:05.760 calm he went really hard with Bitcoin 1:13:02.550,1:13:08.480 cash and I think things like the fort 1:13:05.760,1:13:11.030 would be SV were actually manufactured 1:13:08.480,1:13:14.120 liquidity to create more fuel for his 1:13:11.030,1:13:15.860 his fight but I think that in the 1:13:14.120,1:13:21.110 process he may have killed Bitcoin cash 1:13:15.860,1:13:23.540 on his own I think one or two years is 1:13:21.110,1:13:25.700 probably accurate I think as far as his 1:13:23.540,1:13:28.239 lifespan but what happens when he's 1:13:25.700,1:13:31.100 holding bag holding what he thought was 1:13:28.239,1:13:32.870 fifty million dollars or something in in 1:13:31.100,1:13:36.590 resources and then it turns to zero 1:13:32.870,1:13:38.989 overnight what happens when people just 1:13:36.590,1:13:41.480 get tired of him and his reputation even 1:13:38.989,1:13:43.460 from having a money or Bitcoin calm just 1:13:41.480,1:13:44.870 becomes worthless like this can happen 1:13:43.460,1:13:47.030 very very very quickly 1:13:44.870,1:13:50.330 um when he's at that interview with me 1:13:47.030,1:13:52.190 he lost a lot you know III feel like I 1:13:50.330,1:13:55.370 cost him a lot of money and a lot of his 1:13:52.190,1:13:58.070 efforts even just through being on a 1:13:55.370,1:14:00.140 live scene with him for an hour or two I 1:13:58.070,1:14:03.560 I wouldn't be surprised if that cost 1:14:00.140,1:14:06.560 some tens of thousands or more in costs 1:14:03.560,1:14:10.070 of putting out fires with PR people and 1:14:06.560,1:14:11.780 you know making videos apologizing and 1:14:10.070,1:14:14.930 whatever else he felt like he needed to 1:14:11.780,1:14:16.760 do to counteract that event and I'm 1:14:14.930,1:14:19.489 happy that he had to waste money on 1:14:16.760,1:14:21.560 watching that event so I think we can't 1:14:19.489,1:14:23.570 we can't just let ourselves think Oh 1:14:21.560,1:14:26.450 Rogers gonna be around for a long time 1:14:23.570,1:14:28.370 and Rogers rich and Roger invested our 1:14:26.450,1:14:30.950 all these things so we just have to 1:14:28.370,1:14:32.989 accept that no we have to constantly 1:14:30.950,1:14:35.510 make him spend as much money as possible 1:14:32.989,1:14:37.790 we have to make him double down over and 1:14:35.510,1:14:40.430 over and over so he just blows all of 1:14:37.790,1:14:42.230 his fuel as big and as fast as possible 1:14:40.430,1:14:44.030 because he will run out and he will fail 1:14:42.230,1:14:46.640 because he's fighting the market he's 1:14:44.030,1:14:48.739 not trying to participate in it that's 1:14:46.640,1:14:51.950 an interesting point of view and to some 1:14:48.739,1:14:55.280 extent I agree but at the same time it's 1:14:51.950,1:14:57.440 not a factual statement in the sense 1:14:55.280,1:15:01.400 that we have no idea how much he holds 1:14:57.440,1:15:03.800 and what he holds and what do you think 1:15:01.400,1:15:06.020 about the fact that you find lots of 1:15:03.800,1:15:08.540 people who ask him to come back to 1:15:06.020,1:15:10.929 Bitcoin and it happens the same with 1:15:08.540,1:15:14.469 Jihan 1:15:10.929,1:15:16.749 um I don't know I mean come back to 1:15:14.469,1:15:19.689 Bitcoin it's not anybody's choice it's 1:15:16.749,1:15:22.840 his choice and if he wants to start 1:15:19.689,1:15:24.489 promoting Bitcoin getting people making 1:15:22.840,1:15:25.780 Bitcoin calm something that actually 1:15:24.489,1:15:28.239 represents the real Bitcoin 1:15:25.780,1:15:30.099 I mean honestly dude he's he's gonna do 1:15:28.239,1:15:32.199 the same thing he does already he's 1:15:30.099,1:15:35.019 gonna say lies he's gonna try to get 1:15:32.199,1:15:37.630 people to buy Bitcoin I think he's just 1:15:35.019,1:15:39.789 choosing to have people buy something 1:15:37.630,1:15:42.219 other than Bitcoin because yeah some 1:15:39.789,1:15:44.590 point he decided to pivot and speculate 1:15:42.219,1:15:46.869 on he could make more money by something 1:15:44.590,1:15:48.670 smaller coins I don't think he'll come 1:15:46.869,1:15:50.860 back to Bitcoin because bitcoins to 1:15:48.670,1:15:54.039 expensive now and he won't he won't he 1:15:50.860,1:15:57.429 can't get the same percentage of the 1:15:54.039,1:15:59.650 entire pie of Bitcoin that he that he 1:15:57.429,1:16:01.959 that he once had and that's the mistake 1:15:59.650,1:16:04.059 is that every single time he bets 1:16:01.959,1:16:05.650 against Bitcoin in fights Bitcoin it 1:16:04.059,1:16:08.139 becomes harder for him to have as many 1:16:05.650,1:16:09.909 bitcoins as he used to and if he really 1:16:08.139,1:16:12.459 wanted to he was ever going to promote 1:16:09.909,1:16:14.530 that coin again come back to Bitcoin it 1:16:12.459,1:16:17.489 will only be because he has a higher 1:16:14.530,1:16:20.650 percentage of it than he once had 1:16:17.489,1:16:23.050 somehow I feel very sorry that we spent 1:16:20.650,1:16:26.260 so much time talking about him yeah me 1:16:23.050,1:16:28.539 too but at the same time it has to deal 1:16:26.260,1:16:31.689 with the idea of politics and he is one 1:16:28.539,1:16:34.630 of the biggest figures then he's still 1:16:31.689,1:16:37.090 tricking newcomers into believing that 1:16:34.630,1:16:38.979 he's selling the real Bitcoin and when 1:16:37.090,1:16:41.530 you tried to buy Bitcoin though maybe 1:16:38.979,1:16:43.900 he's just tricking us into believing 1:16:41.530,1:16:46.449 that you know like because that's a 1:16:43.900,1:16:49.239 bigger win isn't it if he can if he can 1:16:46.449,1:16:52.119 fool his enemy into thinking that he is 1:16:49.239,1:16:54.249 a formidable opponent then maybe that 1:16:52.119,1:16:56.800 allows him to be able to actually trick 1:16:54.249,1:16:59.020 the newbies and think that he has power 1:16:56.800,1:17:01.510 maybe we're giving him the power 1:16:59.020,1:17:06.670 sure just by mentioning him we are 1:17:01.510,1:17:11.020 legitimizing his position so let's move 1:17:06.670,1:17:12.700 on and talk yeah I am a little bit of a 1:17:11.020,1:17:15.040 hypocrite in this sense because I do pay 1:17:12.700,1:17:17.050 him some attention but more and more 1:17:15.040,1:17:19.390 over time I try to make it more about 1:17:17.050,1:17:22.330 more conceptual and more about lessons 1:17:19.390,1:17:23.830 like even with this this fight thing the 1:17:22.330,1:17:25.810 only reason I'm talking about Roger 1:17:23.830,1:17:29.320 really is because I think maybe oh 1:17:25.810,1:17:32.230 there's just some astronomical probably 1:17:29.320,1:17:34.330 chance but chance that I can take this 1:17:32.230,1:17:36.370 fucking domain that's the only reason 1:17:34.330,1:17:38.050 it's not because I actually think we 1:17:36.370,1:17:39.280 need to still keep talking about and 1:17:38.050,1:17:44.830 it's because he still has an asset 1:17:39.280,1:17:47.940 that's mm-hmm and if you think about it 1:17:44.830,1:17:49.720 even in real politics with politicians 1:17:47.940,1:17:53.140 this is how it works 1:17:49.720,1:17:56.050 I don't think Donald Trump it would have 1:17:53.140,1:17:58.930 stood a chance against his opponents who 1:17:56.050,1:18:02.380 are pretty much career politicians if it 1:17:58.930,1:18:03.970 wasn't for his consultant theme and the 1:18:02.380,1:18:06.430 people who taught him how to get 1:18:03.970,1:18:08.050 constant attention from the media he was 1:18:06.430,1:18:10.570 everywhere he was making these 1:18:08.050,1:18:14.110 controversial statements and he knew how 1:18:10.570,1:18:16.210 to maneuver mainstream media so that he 1:18:14.110,1:18:19.150 was always the candidate that they would 1:18:16.210,1:18:21.970 talk about and maybe that in the case of 1:18:19.150,1:18:24.160 Roger Vere he's tricking us to talk 1:18:21.970,1:18:26.950 about him all the time so that he gets 1:18:24.160,1:18:29.940 legitimized as an important figure even 1:18:26.950,1:18:33.630 though maybe that he doesn't deserve it 1:18:29.940,1:18:38.520 yeah this is like Pepe politics 1:18:33.630,1:18:38.520 Pepe politics I like the sound of that 1:18:39.270,1:18:44.710 mmm so do you like the evolution of 1:18:42.670,1:18:47.910 Bitcoin over the years are you proud of 1:18:44.710,1:18:51.310 what you feel like you've accomplished 1:18:47.910,1:18:55.290 more so over the you know over time I 1:18:51.310,1:18:55.290 feel like my my pride in my 1:18:57.160,1:19:01.520 appreciation for my own participation 1:18:58.940,1:19:06.110 has been increasing more in though in 1:19:01.520,1:19:07.880 the later years the the pace seems to be 1:19:06.110,1:19:11.300 kind of steady I don't think it's 1:19:07.880,1:19:14.000 accelerated a lot a lot but it has grown 1:19:11.300,1:19:15.350 you know I mean we have so many develop 1:19:14.000,1:19:16.970 well I think probably most of the 1:19:15.350,1:19:19.910 developers that say are working on 1:19:16.970,1:19:21.440 lightning I'm gonna I might be wrong I'm 1:19:19.910,1:19:23.960 sorry if I am but I think a lot of them 1:19:21.440,1:19:26.000 weren't even around in the first couple 1:19:23.960,1:19:27.470 of years that I was here so that's 1:19:26.000,1:19:29.900 pretty cool right I mean we have a whole 1:19:27.470,1:19:31.160 layer extra layer of technology being 1:19:29.900,1:19:33.200 worked on by a bunch of people that 1:19:31.160,1:19:37.670 weren't even around back then so 1:19:33.200,1:19:41.060 something has improved actually I had an 1:19:37.670,1:19:44.810 interview for this podcast with Matt be 1:19:41.060,1:19:47.739 on Twitter I think his motto XI or 1:19:44.810,1:19:51.770 something and he's a journalist or 1:19:47.739,1:19:54.350 Bitcoin magazine and he told me that 1:19:51.770,1:19:56.570 he's very happy with bit refill and 1:19:54.350,1:19:59.239 that's the service which he uses when he 1:19:56.570,1:20:01.400 wants to spend his Bitcoin and I told 1:19:59.239,1:20:03.650 him you know I'm actually scheduled to 1:20:01.400,1:20:06.050 talk to John next week and I'm going to 1:20:03.650,1:20:08.760 let him know about it I'm glad that I 1:20:06.050,1:20:11.220 remembered to do it 1:20:08.760,1:20:13.800 I'm happy to hear people using it I mean 1:20:11.220,1:20:17.820 I've used gift cards in Bitcoin since 1:20:13.800,1:20:20.430 years now - and then I'm member um I'm a 1:20:17.820,1:20:22.440 big dota 2 fan on and off I haven't 1:20:20.430,1:20:26.310 really been playing lately but and dota 1:20:22.440,1:20:29.790 2 you know uh buying skins and stuff 1:20:26.310,1:20:32.700 like this and different cosmetic thing 1:20:29.790,1:20:36.350 aspects or music and icons or whatever 1:20:32.700,1:20:39.180 for the game just to have it be more fun 1:20:36.350,1:20:43.230 you know I was using I was buying Steam 1:20:39.180,1:20:46.680 credit with Bitcoin for years and then 1:20:43.230,1:20:49.050 Steam stopped accepting Bitcoin my my 1:20:46.680,1:20:52.290 theory is because bitpay fucked it up 1:20:49.050,1:20:54.120 not Bitcoin but uh and then I was a go 1:20:52.290,1:20:56.580 shit where am I gonna buy steam with 1:20:54.120,1:21:00.410 Bitcoin now and that's how I've heard 1:20:56.580,1:21:03.300 refill and they had only just started 1:21:00.410,1:21:07.380 offering gift cards and like I think it 1:21:03.300,1:21:08.880 was June last year and so I was able to 1:21:07.380,1:21:10.530 get steam through them and that that 1:21:08.880,1:21:12.420 gave me my first exposure to them 1:21:10.530,1:21:14.640 because before that they were only doing 1:21:12.420,1:21:18.989 like mobile mobile top-ups 1:21:14.640,1:21:21.360 mobile recharge refill things and I 1:21:18.989,1:21:23.489 already knew you know that there was a 1:21:21.360,1:21:26.780 good use case there I think that you 1:21:23.489,1:21:30.290 know people like money with utility and 1:21:26.780,1:21:33.180 gift cards provide very specific utility 1:21:30.290,1:21:34.950 so you see the most popular ones being 1:21:33.180,1:21:39.600 the ones that have more utility like 1:21:34.950,1:21:42.480 Amazon and I will play because buy more 1:21:39.600,1:21:44.520 very things with those gift cards but in 1:21:42.480,1:21:46.890 the end what they do provide is 1:21:44.520,1:21:50.670 stability you know that you're going to 1:21:46.890,1:21:53.220 get $20 worth of services from or 1:21:50.670,1:21:56.760 products from Amazon when you have a $20 1:21:53.220,1:21:58.260 card when you use a utility token or 1:21:56.760,1:22:00.540 something like this you don't know that 1:21:58.260,1:22:03.470 you know you don't know what the trade 1:22:00.540,1:22:06.660 value will be of civic tokens or other 1:22:03.470,1:22:08.160 utility tokens so if cars just make more 1:22:06.660,1:22:10.830 sense from if you're trying to live on 1:22:08.160,1:22:12.989 crypto you're you're gonna you know and 1:22:10.830,1:22:14.910 you want to be able to have store some 1:22:12.989,1:22:17.310 value in things you know you need to buy 1:22:14.910,1:22:19.590 well you know fuck it I'll buy some 1:22:17.310,1:22:21.900 Google Play credit I'll charge my Google 1:22:19.590,1:22:24.750 Play account and I'll let my recurring 1:22:21.900,1:22:27.659 fees for google random google services 1:22:24.750,1:22:30.360 just get deducted from that so I do 1:22:27.659,1:22:31.590 think it helps people helps create what 1:22:30.360,1:22:35.790 I eventually hope will be a circular 1:22:31.590,1:22:37.760 Bitcoin economy where people aren't even 1:22:35.790,1:22:40.530 having to get out of the coin at all 1:22:37.760,1:22:44.040 just for the record when you sense theme 1:22:40.530,1:22:48.480 its ste a.m. which is the service by 1:22:44.040,1:22:52.340 valve and not SD EEM which is the 1:22:48.480,1:22:56.100 currency of a social network not a deal 1:22:52.340,1:22:58.590 come on nobody uses that I used to use 1:22:56.100,1:23:00.739 it I used to like it it's like reddit 1:22:58.590,1:23:02.880 with a blogging function 1:23:00.739,1:23:06.150 it's like Wregget read it with a 1:23:02.880,1:23:10.560 spamming function yeah because they feed 1:23:06.150,1:23:13.199 bots and stuff now I mean I got the 1:23:10.560,1:23:14.760 concept of steam' it's just I what I 1:23:13.199,1:23:16.080 didn't like is that everybody by bought 1:23:14.760,1:23:18.060 some kind of illusion this is somehow 1:23:16.080,1:23:21.150 blockchain and somehow decentralize and 1:23:18.060,1:23:23.370 that was all bullshit I don't mind 1:23:21.150,1:23:25.140 including monetization incentive 1:23:23.370,1:23:27.390 incentivizes Asian schemes within 1:23:25.140,1:23:30.360 platforms it's great game if I the shit 1:23:27.390,1:23:32.820 out of that but don't don't exploit the 1:23:30.360,1:23:34.020 concept of Bitcoin to do it and scam a 1:23:32.820,1:23:35.630 bunch of people and think that they can 1:23:34.020,1:23:38.940 actually invest in this stuff and then 1:23:35.630,1:23:40.949 then walking them into like these these 1:23:38.940,1:23:42.570 holding periods and all this crazy shit 1:23:40.949,1:23:46.290 and make them think that money can be 1:23:42.570,1:23:49.230 printed out of thin air it stupid what 1:23:46.290,1:23:54.080 do you think about brave and older token 1:23:49.230,1:23:57.000 systems I have some history with brave I 1:23:54.080,1:24:00.540 was very very critical of Brendan Eich 1:23:57.000,1:24:02.340 and they're they've changed their their 1:24:00.540,1:24:05.880 plan since they first started a little 1:24:02.340,1:24:07.469 bit but not that much and so I kind of 1:24:05.880,1:24:08.969 got into some arguments of them a few 1:24:07.469,1:24:10.230 times on Twitter over time I actually 1:24:08.969,1:24:12.900 did an interview with him that I never 1:24:10.230,1:24:15.630 published um where we had a phone call 1:24:12.900,1:24:18.120 for a couple hours actually talking 1:24:15.630,1:24:20.390 about my criticisms of their design or 1:24:18.120,1:24:23.100 the system and is his kind of 1:24:20.390,1:24:24.630 specifications for them it's on a hard 1:24:23.100,1:24:27.430 drive somewhere in storage I don't have 1:24:24.630,1:24:30.700 it with me anymore but uh 1:24:27.430,1:24:32.740 I think that there's that as a browser 1:24:30.700,1:24:35.080 fine if you want to make a browser that 1:24:32.740,1:24:37.660 is privacy focused and efficient and 1:24:35.080,1:24:38.800 whatever but it has absolutely nothing 1:24:37.660,1:24:41.140 to do with the other side of the 1:24:38.800,1:24:44.260 business model and this is how this is 1:24:41.140,1:24:47.490 how shit coiners and and ICO things 1:24:44.260,1:24:49.930 trick people like for some reason people 1:24:47.490,1:24:51.370 either because they don't want to or 1:24:49.930,1:24:53.380 because it's maybe more difficult than I 1:24:51.370,1:24:56.350 realize it is they don't want to think 1:24:53.380,1:24:58.150 two or three levels deep or zoom out you 1:24:56.350,1:24:59.770 know two or three steps they just want 1:24:58.150,1:25:02.710 to see what they want to see and that's 1:24:59.770,1:25:05.320 enough for them but brave being a 1:25:02.710,1:25:07.720 privacy centric or ad blocking cool 1:25:05.320,1:25:10.440 browser has nothing to do with the brave 1:25:07.720,1:25:13.510 token it's like totally unrelated and 1:25:10.440,1:25:15.370 people somehow for some reason attribute 1:25:13.510,1:25:19.540 the two sides of the model and they 1:25:15.370,1:25:22.180 they're not but the concept of rewarding 1:25:19.540,1:25:25.870 people for their attention is total 1:25:22.180,1:25:27.700 nonsense we already have websites for 1:25:25.870,1:25:29.980 this like if you want to like get paid 1:25:27.700,1:25:31.810 to look at ads there are some really 1:25:29.980,1:25:33.130 shitty websites that you can find online 1:25:31.810,1:25:34.990 that people have been doing this for 1:25:33.130,1:25:37.570 years and you'll get paid pennies for 1:25:34.990,1:25:39.220 your time and that will be the market 1:25:37.570,1:25:42.790 rate that same market rate that brave 1:25:39.220,1:25:45.280 will try to deal with I mean come on do 1:25:42.790,1:25:47.080 you want to start a tech business where 1:25:45.280,1:25:49.780 what you're trying to do is compete for 1:25:47.080,1:25:52.180 this like shitty ass spam market of ads 1:25:49.780,1:25:55.840 where people are being paid to look at 1:25:52.180,1:25:57.640 ads no because advertisers don't want to 1:25:55.840,1:26:01.750 pay for ads like that unless they're 1:25:57.640,1:26:04.420 extremely cheap and actually provide 1:26:01.750,1:26:05.950 some kind of conversions and people 1:26:04.420,1:26:07.900 don't want to spend their time getting 1:26:05.950,1:26:10.510 paid pennies they want them make real 1:26:07.900,1:26:12.550 money and do things most people have 1:26:10.510,1:26:14.470 more to contribute to life than just 1:26:12.550,1:26:18.220 fucking clicking on ads all day and 1:26:14.470,1:26:20.560 staring at stupid pictures furthest some 1:26:18.220,1:26:22.150 people that would do it but this is not 1:26:20.560,1:26:23.530 a business model this is not something 1:26:22.150,1:26:26.770 that they'll actually be able to make 1:26:23.530,1:26:30.480 succeed what they really wants to do in 1:26:26.770,1:26:34.210 my opinion is they want to they want to 1:26:30.480,1:26:36.610 exploit the content of the Internet they 1:26:34.210,1:26:38.470 want to take the fact that most websites 1:26:36.610,1:26:41.200 they're putting their content out there 1:26:38.470,1:26:43.660 for a relatively free 1:26:41.200,1:26:45.670 and and without any friction to access 1:26:43.660,1:26:48.250 and so that what they want to do is they 1:26:45.670,1:26:50.410 want to replace ads and they want to say 1:26:48.250,1:26:54.280 well because we're going to exploit your 1:26:50.410,1:26:56.950 content and put our own monetize content 1:26:54.280,1:26:59.050 on there we're gonna give you a cut but 1:26:56.950,1:27:02.140 this is not a voluntary process and it 1:26:59.050,1:27:06.070 requires you to kind of opt into their 1:27:02.140,1:27:09.040 system and kyc and it's just a bunch of 1:27:06.070,1:27:12.430 nonsense I think that uh that's the case 1:27:09.040,1:27:15.250 for pretty much all I co took it I don't 1:27:12.430,1:27:18.190 really know of any I co tokens that are 1:27:15.250,1:27:21.090 truly providing more utility than if 1:27:18.190,1:27:24.670 they were just a centralized database I 1:27:21.090,1:27:27.160 feel like we sidetracked so much from 1:27:24.670,1:27:28.540 Bitcoin and this has been going for over 1:27:27.160,1:27:32.230 an hour so I should ask your last 1:27:28.540,1:27:34.390 question so there's this Alfred 1:27:32.230,1:27:37.330 Hitchcock quote in which he said that 1:27:34.390,1:27:40.780 movies and their length should be 1:27:37.330,1:27:43.150 proportional with the human bladder so 1:27:40.780,1:27:45.630 we shouldn't go on for too long if we 1:27:43.150,1:27:48.550 want to okay 1:27:45.630,1:27:50.080 so yeah I mean and I've spoken on some 1:27:48.550,1:27:51.670 of these things before if people are 1:27:50.080,1:27:53.500 actually following me for any amount of 1:27:51.670,1:27:55.450 time they've heard me say some of the 1:27:53.500,1:27:57.300 things which we talked about before so 1:27:55.450,1:28:02.470 yeah I mean guide if you have a 1:27:57.300,1:28:03.910 interesting question shoot now now 1:28:02.470,1:28:06.190 you're putting a lot of pressure on 1:28:03.910,1:28:09.910 because I have no idea what you spoke 1:28:06.190,1:28:11.650 about before I have always knew people 1:28:09.910,1:28:13.270 anyway I don't like repeating myself 1:28:11.650,1:28:14.800 because I feel like I don't want the 1:28:13.270,1:28:16.750 same person to hear the same thing for 1:28:14.800,1:28:18.220 me but I also don't have enough 1:28:16.750,1:28:19.750 appreciation for the fact that there's 1:28:18.220,1:28:22.480 always people coming in and they're not 1:28:19.750,1:28:26.860 all digging into my catalogue of 1:28:22.480,1:28:30.010 passengers you know okay so what is your 1:28:26.860,1:28:32.050 view on hyper Bitcoin ization and where 1:28:30.010,1:28:33.910 do you think it starts from I usually 1:28:32.050,1:28:35.800 have this kind of debate where some 1:28:33.910,1:28:37.510 people mentioned that it comes from the 1:28:35.800,1:28:39.490 developed states which are the ones 1:28:37.510,1:28:42.580 which can afford larger amounts of 1:28:39.490,1:28:44.470 Bitcoin but I like to think that it's 1:28:42.580,1:28:46.960 actually the states which need it for 1:28:44.470,1:28:49.360 censorship resistance against their 1:28:46.960,1:28:50.360 governments which are actually going to 1:28:49.360,1:28:53.210 get in and buy 1:28:50.360,1:28:56.210 [Music] 1:28:53.210,1:28:59.900 I don't let hyper Buchanan's ation is a 1:28:56.210,1:29:03.019 bit of a extreme concept I don't know 1:28:59.900,1:29:04.940 that we will witness it in a moment I 1:29:03.019,1:29:07.699 don't know that we'll see just one day 1:29:04.940,1:29:10.659 there'll be a hyper Bitcoin ization and 1:29:07.699,1:29:14.210 I also think that as a concept 1:29:10.659,1:29:16.159 look there's a certain amount of value 1:29:14.210,1:29:17.510 in the world that people will store in 1:29:16.159,1:29:20.710 money and a certain amount of buying 1:29:17.510,1:29:24.380 power and that that is a relatively 1:29:20.710,1:29:28.969 stable amount it doesn't just get to be 1:29:24.380,1:29:30.679 where one day Bitcoin will buy you you 1:29:28.969,1:29:33.019 know one Bitcoin will buy you an entire 1:29:30.679,1:29:36.440 island or some shit what happens is that 1:29:33.019,1:29:38.809 the value the value in dollars the 1:29:36.440,1:29:41.389 Bitcoin may reach a hyper amount of 1:29:38.809,1:29:44.659 money but the value of dollars in 1:29:41.389,1:29:48.559 purchasing power may be worth a hyper 1:29:44.659,1:29:50.690 amount less you know so maybe when we 1:29:48.559,1:29:52.190 when we get hyper Bitcoin ization how 1:29:50.690,1:29:56.030 much is a hamburger gonna cost ten 1:29:52.190,1:29:57.409 thousand dollars you know so I don't 1:29:56.030,1:29:59.000 really know what it looks like and I 1:29:57.409,1:30:00.500 don't and I hope it doesn't happen in a 1:29:59.000,1:30:02.539 moment because I think the world needs 1:30:00.500,1:30:05.539 to acclimate to the disruption that 1:30:02.539,1:30:07.280 Bitcoin is going to cause so I would 1:30:05.539,1:30:09.469 rather see it happen in pockets I'd 1:30:07.280,1:30:11.659 rather see little things like Venezuela 1:30:09.469,1:30:13.969 you know getting really into Bitcoin in 1:30:11.659,1:30:16.460 in countries that have really bad money 1:30:13.969,1:30:19.820 or really bad access to banking or or 1:30:16.460,1:30:22.550 really insufficient means of sending 1:30:19.820,1:30:24.800 money overseas or too much censorship of 1:30:22.550,1:30:27.260 getting money across borders I'd rather 1:30:24.800,1:30:30.110 see the small use cases happen slowly 1:30:27.260,1:30:32.090 and and in a way that nobody really 1:30:30.110,1:30:34.190 stopped because that's how we kind of 1:30:32.090,1:30:37.610 sneak in there you know I want it to be 1:30:34.190,1:30:39.380 where one day politicians aren't trying 1:30:37.610,1:30:42.110 to kill Bitcoin because they holds them 1:30:39.380,1:30:45.199 I want it to be that you know people are 1:30:42.110,1:30:47.750 not trying to kill Bitcoin or or wish it 1:30:45.199,1:30:50.360 was dead or fight against it because you 1:30:47.750,1:30:52.369 know their mom is alive because of 1:30:50.360,1:30:54.920 Bitcoin because of that's how she 1:30:52.369,1:30:57.230 escaped her oppression you know like I 1:30:54.920,1:30:59.510 want there to be small stories and small 1:30:57.230,1:31:02.090 wins I don't mind if it takes past my 1:30:59.510,1:31:03.590 lifetime to get there yeah I'd love to 1:31:02.090,1:31:05.420 see I'd love to witness all the 1:31:03.590,1:31:05.840 advancements of Bitcoin and be here when 1:31:05.420,1:31:07.850 it happens 1:31:05.840,1:31:09.560 but I don't know when these things 1:31:07.850,1:31:12.110 happen I don't know how long it takes 1:31:09.560,1:31:14.510 and concept of I per Bitcoin ization I 1:31:12.110,1:31:18.020 think requires people it's a little bit 1:31:14.510,1:31:19.550 of a dangerous concept for people to 1:31:18.020,1:31:20.540 hope for because it really appeals to 1:31:19.550,1:31:22.670 agreed side 1:31:20.540,1:31:25.730 it's like saying oh one day I might wake 1:31:22.670,1:31:28.100 up and I will be a millionaire in a 1:31:25.730,1:31:30.230 station and I don't think it says 1:31:28.100,1:31:32.570 nothing is ever that simple right like 1:31:30.230,1:31:34.040 yeah maybe one day you will wake up and 1:31:32.570,1:31:35.840 you'll be a millionaire and it will cost 1:31:34.040,1:31:40.030 you know ten thousand dollars for a 1:31:35.840,1:31:42.350 hamburger will you be happy I don't know 1:31:40.030,1:31:44.540 that that's a good point of view and I 1:31:42.350,1:31:48.170 think I've had a similar thought at one 1:31:44.540,1:31:49.880 point but you mentioned some other more 1:31:48.170,1:31:51.590 interesting aspects too like whether 1:31:49.880,1:31:53.710 it'll be government spying a lot we've 1:31:51.590,1:31:57.110 heard some rumors lately about Russia 1:31:53.710,1:31:59.510 buying into Bitcoin and I see oh the 1:31:57.110,1:32:02.300 tokens and shit like this but yeah I 1:31:59.510,1:32:04.220 think that there are gonna be some 1:32:02.300,1:32:05.600 governments that are going to be smart 1:32:04.220,1:32:09.290 and they're going to start buying the 1:32:05.600,1:32:11.330 coin or even mining Bitcoin probably 1:32:09.290,1:32:12.860 secretly and it probably has already 1:32:11.330,1:32:16.060 started where there are some reserves 1:32:12.860,1:32:20.120 and governments of Bitcoin maybe other 1:32:16.060,1:32:23.570 out coins but I don't know if it'll be 1:32:20.120,1:32:26.180 like a financial Cold War where just or 1:32:23.570,1:32:27.500 or what how it would be because you 1:32:26.180,1:32:29.180 don't Ronnie you don't want to be the 1:32:27.500,1:32:31.340 only country doing it because then 1:32:29.180,1:32:33.620 you're the only one exposed you kind of 1:32:31.340,1:32:35.750 want everybody to be doing it secretly 1:32:33.620,1:32:37.970 and all that one then one day you want 1:32:35.750,1:32:40.160 to just find out oh shit like there's 1:32:37.970,1:32:42.290 twenty percent of the Bitcoin supply is 1:32:40.160,1:32:43.010 owned by 20 different countries that's 1:32:42.290,1:32:45.110 pretty cool 1:32:43.010,1:32:46.700 you want every you wanted to sneak in 1:32:45.110,1:32:50.210 and you want everybody to be kind of 1:32:46.700,1:32:52.460 stuck with Bitcoin and and you want the 1:32:50.210,1:32:55.700 game the game theory to hold you want it 1:32:52.460,1:33:00.320 to be where everybody's scared to not 1:32:55.700,1:33:04.690 have that's an interesting concept and I 1:33:00.320,1:33:07.190 taught about it before as this little 1:33:04.690,1:33:09.830 invention of cryptography and computer 1:33:07.190,1:33:12.760 science can actually shift the dynamics 1:33:09.830,1:33:16.750 of international power structures 1:33:12.760,1:33:18.820 you can see how I think in 2017 they 1:33:16.750,1:33:21.790 made the case about North Korea which 1:33:18.820,1:33:25.239 was mining Bitcoin and engaging in 1:33:21.790,1:33:28.000 trades to bypass their embargo and more 1:33:25.239,1:33:33.580 recently we've seen cases in Palestine 1:33:28.000,1:33:36.610 and then Venezuela and up to this point 1:33:33.580,1:33:38.680 it's always about trying to find ways 1:33:36.610,1:33:43.960 around the international financial 1:33:38.680,1:33:47.500 system which tries to maneuver and have 1:33:43.960,1:33:51.390 leverage on how money circulates around 1:33:47.500,1:33:52.620 the globe and I guess the more 1:33:51.390,1:33:54.460 [Music] 1:33:52.620,1:33:57.460 nation-states declared their 1:33:54.460,1:34:00.880 independence and say we no longer want 1:33:57.460,1:34:03.400 to be bound to the IMF and we don't want 1:34:00.880,1:34:07.810 to have our policies shaped by somebody 1:34:03.400,1:34:09.400 sitting in Washington or something yeah 1:34:07.810,1:34:11.950 I mean this isn't something I have a lot 1:34:09.400,1:34:15.670 of expertise in but if I'm going to riff 1:34:11.950,1:34:18.310 on it I would say okay yes I think that 1:34:15.670,1:34:20.830 that there will be a kind of shift in 1:34:18.310,1:34:23.020 world powers because of Bitcoin like I 1:34:20.830,1:34:25.330 don't know like if Ukraine I think at 1:34:23.020,1:34:26.950 some point but this year said they had a 1:34:25.330,1:34:28.630 certain amount of Bitcoin and if they're 1:34:26.950,1:34:30.070 the only ones I do right now maybe 1:34:28.630,1:34:32.080 they'll end up having like a 1:34:30.070,1:34:34.420 disproportionate amount of Ag into other 1:34:32.080,1:34:35.710 countries in their own power and and be 1:34:34.420,1:34:37.210 able to kind of shift a little more 1:34:35.710,1:34:37.720 power their way because of the Bitcoin 1:34:37.210,1:34:41.170 they hold 1:34:37.720,1:34:45.010 but there's like other things at work 1:34:41.170,1:34:46.870 like if Venezuela becomes you know the 1:34:45.010,1:34:49.300 richest country in the world just 1:34:46.870,1:34:51.610 because of the Bitcoin they hold well if 1:34:49.300,1:34:55.570 they don't use that Bitcoin properly to 1:34:51.610,1:34:58.140 have like a proportionally powerful army 1:34:55.570,1:35:00.190 and political influence and trade 1:34:58.140,1:35:02.260 agreements and whatever else it might 1:35:00.190,1:35:04.180 take to be a powerful country if they 1:35:02.260,1:35:06.040 don't do that then that Bitcoin will 1:35:04.180,1:35:08.950 just get taken from them eventually you 1:35:06.040,1:35:10.870 know so it's a kind of thing where 1:35:08.950,1:35:13.090 there's a lot of facets and layers to 1:35:10.870,1:35:15.070 this so I don't think you just get to 1:35:13.090,1:35:16.510 become one of the greatest countries or 1:35:15.070,1:35:18.070 richest countries just because you made 1:35:16.510,1:35:20.650 a good bet on Bitcoin I think you have 1:35:18.070,1:35:22.600 to still be actually a good country in 1:35:20.650,1:35:25.719 actually ineffective country in other 1:35:22.600,1:35:26.739 ways or otherwise you're just gonna you 1:35:25.719,1:35:29.460 know the US will come 1:35:26.739,1:35:31.929 bomb you and take your oil you know and 1:35:29.460,1:35:34.570 then long all of a sudden they're taking 1:35:31.929,1:35:38.440 your Bitcoin instead you can make the 1:35:34.570,1:35:42.849 same case or network effect with gold 1:35:38.440,1:35:46.449 which becomes useless unless somebody 1:35:42.849,1:35:50.469 finds value in it and trades some kind 1:35:46.449,1:35:54.159 of different assets or goods and barters 1:35:50.469,1:35:56.739 or exchanges so even with Bitcoin I I 1:35:54.159,1:35:59.710 guess it's important to make sure that 1:35:56.739,1:36:03.300 it has real-life value and it's not just 1:35:59.710,1:36:05.679 speculation and I appreciate people who 1:36:03.300,1:36:07.690 do this this kind of grassroots 1:36:05.679,1:36:10.599 movements I know a guy from New Jersey 1:36:07.690,1:36:13.119 and he walks from store to store and 1:36:10.599,1:36:15.670 tries to convince people to accept 1:36:13.119,1:36:18.280 bitcoin and litecoin make my payments 1:36:15.670,1:36:21.070 and that's really good for a small 1:36:18.280,1:36:24.070 adoption or raising awareness for making 1:36:21.070,1:36:27.340 people understand how it works I guess 1:36:24.070,1:36:29.170 this also only works in environments 1:36:27.340,1:36:32.289 where you have a proper legislation 1:36:29.170,1:36:34.409 regarding taxes because shop owners will 1:36:32.289,1:36:36.460 just ask okay so how do I actually 1:36:34.409,1:36:39.099 declare this to the IRS 1:36:36.460,1:36:39.820 how am I going to avoid fines from the 1:36:39.099,1:36:43.690 taxman 1:36:39.820,1:36:46.800 when it comes around yeah I have 1:36:43.690,1:36:49.619 conflicting views as far as having big 1:36:46.800,1:36:52.599 retail businesses except aquaian I mean 1:36:49.619,1:36:54.309 payment methods are something businesses 1:36:52.599,1:36:57.550 like to be able to support when they can 1:36:54.309,1:36:59.590 if their customers don't want and to but 1:36:57.550,1:37:01.119 I don't know how much like you know I 1:36:59.590,1:37:03.639 just I think I would just shade with you 1:37:01.119,1:37:06.400 recently how the the restaurant where I 1:37:03.639,1:37:09.070 have it that Quinn meetup here recently 1:37:06.400,1:37:11.559 started accepting Bitcoin well we talked 1:37:09.070,1:37:14.530 he asked me for months about how to do 1:37:11.559,1:37:16.360 it and I told him how he could do it but 1:37:14.530,1:37:18.219 what he added what he ended up doing was 1:37:16.360,1:37:20.889 just using a payment processor because 1:37:18.219,1:37:24.190 he didn't he's not big enough to have to 1:37:20.889,1:37:26.139 like have an accounting firm that knows 1:37:24.190,1:37:28.420 how to properly account for the Bitcoin 1:37:26.139,1:37:31.119 in the ways that the Romanian government 1:37:28.420,1:37:33.880 would be satisfied with with the 1:37:31.119,1:37:35.440 invoicing standards and all this shit he 1:37:33.880,1:37:37.510 just wanted to be able to give his 1:37:35.440,1:37:39.460 customers the convenience he didn't want 1:37:37.510,1:37:40.050 to have to actually learn about Bitcoin 1:37:39.460,1:37:42.540 and care 1:37:40.050,1:37:44.760 and have overhead to be able to support 1:37:42.540,1:37:46.320 it so he just once there was a pan 1:37:44.760,1:37:48.239 processor that would handle it for him 1:37:46.320,1:37:50.849 and he could end up just invoicing 1:37:48.239,1:37:54.570 customers and have his accounting stay 1:37:50.849,1:37:57.389 in Romanian Ron then he did it you know 1:37:54.570,1:37:59.340 I don't know how much it helps adoption 1:37:57.389,1:38:01.500 other than just that you've educated a 1:37:59.340,1:38:03.360 business about it and given the random 1:38:01.500,1:38:06.239 Bitcoin her that comes to town a way to 1:38:03.360,1:38:08.610 spend his Bitcoin instead of cash you 1:38:06.239,1:38:10.409 know we had this kind of theme in the 1:38:08.610,1:38:11.429 early years that I came around where 1:38:10.409,1:38:12.960 everybody was trying to get every 1:38:11.429,1:38:15.300 business to adopt it this is how bitpay 1:38:12.960,1:38:17.659 kind of got off the ground it was trying 1:38:15.300,1:38:19.920 to get businesses to adopt Bitcoin and 1:38:17.659,1:38:21.210 it was a big deal back then we thought 1:38:19.920,1:38:22.530 it was the coolest shit whenever 1:38:21.210,1:38:24.119 somebody would post on reddit that 1:38:22.530,1:38:26.520 they're like a local pizza place is 1:38:24.119,1:38:27.719 accepting Bitcoin now but these days it 1:38:26.520,1:38:29.670 doesn't I don't think it really matters 1:38:27.719,1:38:31.860 I don't think it has a negative or 1:38:29.670,1:38:34.520 positive effect outside of just 1:38:31.860,1:38:38.790 educating one more person about the coin 1:38:34.520,1:38:41.400 so let's end what a prediction how do 1:38:38.790,1:38:46.409 you see Bitcoin as the network growing 1:38:41.400,1:38:48.360 in the next ten years ten years Wow man 1:38:46.409,1:38:49.500 it's only been ten years that's asking a 1:38:48.360,1:38:51.270 lot 1:38:49.500,1:38:52.980 I think Bitcoin years are kind of like 1:38:51.270,1:38:55.559 dog years or something it's like every 1:38:52.980,1:38:58.139 year feels like for seven years have 1:38:55.559,1:38:59.730 passed for some reason so it's you're 1:38:58.139,1:39:01.440 asking me kind of asked me to predict 1:38:59.730,1:39:05.219 like fifty years away you know a lot of 1:39:01.440,1:39:07.619 years I think that in the next 10 years 1:39:05.219,1:39:09.480 we'll definitely start to see some of 1:39:07.619,1:39:13.500 the disruptive effects of Bitcoin on the 1:39:09.480,1:39:16.650 economy I think probably maybe even 1:39:13.500,1:39:20.429 within the next five years things like 1:39:16.650,1:39:25.980 you know seriously devaluing the storage 1:39:20.429,1:39:27.179 of value aspect of gold or stocks or you 1:39:25.980,1:39:29.699 know I think we'll start to see some 1:39:27.179,1:39:31.909 major disruption much more government 1:39:29.699,1:39:37.099 involvement in Bitcoin whether that be 1:39:31.909,1:39:40.559 regulatory or antagonistic or maybe even 1:39:37.099,1:39:41.820 owning and mining who knows I I think 1:39:40.559,1:39:43.110 that in the next few years we'll 1:39:41.820,1:39:45.150 definitely start to see that the 1:39:43.110,1:39:47.960 disruptive effects this Bitcoin that 1:39:45.150,1:39:47.960 would be my prediction 1:39:48.300,1:39:54.510 general but it also interesting to think 1:39:52.500,1:39:58.290 about it well we haven't seen it yet 1:39:54.510,1:40:00.300 have we I mean as far as I know yeah 1:39:58.290,1:40:03.750 right and lightning is still young 1:40:00.300,1:40:05.550 technology and people are still agnostic 1:40:03.750,1:40:09.390 and you have you still have world 1:40:05.550,1:40:13.400 renowned economists who won the Nobel 1:40:09.390,1:40:16.770 Prize but say that bitcoin is a ponzi 1:40:13.400,1:40:19.170 but our money is a Ponzi big big I think 1:40:16.770,1:40:21.840 bitcoin is a Ponzi to who but it's not 1:40:19.170,1:40:25.860 the Ponzi in the traditional sense it's 1:40:21.840,1:40:27.780 it's but network network effect is the 1:40:25.860,1:40:29.550 same that's what a Ponzi is it's the 1:40:27.780,1:40:31.200 more money come in the more that that 1:40:29.550,1:40:33.690 cannot be afford to pay doubt on a 1:40:31.200,1:40:35.550 limited scale but in the end if 1:40:33.690,1:40:37.650 everybody tries to pull out well 1:40:35.550,1:40:39.780 everybody's gonna wreck themselves so 1:40:37.650,1:40:42.030 you need holders and that's what bitcoin 1:40:39.780,1:40:44.550 you know there is there are Ponzi 1:40:42.030,1:40:46.410 qualities to it but the thing that makes 1:40:44.550,1:40:48.240 different Bitcoin different than a Ponzi 1:40:46.410,1:40:48.750 is that there isn't one person at the 1:40:48.240,1:40:51.270 top 1:40:48.750,1:40:55.590 ripping everybody off it's everybody 1:40:51.270,1:40:59.940 else it's a consensus Ponzi you know but 1:40:55.590,1:41:02.070 all money is know and unlike yet money 1:40:59.940,1:41:06.570 where you actually have a person at the 1:41:02.070,1:41:09.780 top or a group of you elites who also 1:41:06.570,1:41:14.100 enable what's the name of that effect 1:41:09.780,1:41:20.340 wait I read about it in an article on 1:41:14.100,1:41:23.040 mieze am i SES it's about how money when 1:41:20.340,1:41:25.320 it's printed first gets the banks and by 1:41:23.040,1:41:27.890 the time it gets to actual people 1:41:25.320,1:41:30.810 through salaries it loses value 1:41:27.890,1:41:33.570 hmm well I mean government's print money 1:41:30.810,1:41:34.740 and what their job is is to print this 1:41:33.570,1:41:36.150 money and to create the most 1:41:34.740,1:41:38.160 productivity with that money in the 1:41:36.150,1:41:39.570 fastest amount of time possible before 1:41:38.160,1:41:41.670 it starts having negative effects and 1:41:39.570,1:41:43.830 honor me and that's basically how 1:41:41.670,1:41:45.960 inflationary money works I think you 1:41:43.830,1:41:48.870 know they're just saying okay we need to 1:41:45.960,1:41:51.000 we need to spark the economy and we need 1:41:48.870,1:41:52.470 to keep the economy kicking and and they 1:41:51.000,1:41:54.960 need to say they need the economy to 1:41:52.470,1:41:56.430 stay ahead of the money printing and as 1:41:54.960,1:41:58.680 long as they can keep this game up 1:41:56.430,1:42:00.719 things are ok but every once in a while 1:41:58.680,1:42:04.260 the the house has to come in 1:42:00.719,1:42:06.749 and kind of regularly everything in and 1:42:04.260,1:42:08.940 make every achieve another equilibrium 1:42:06.749,1:42:11.340 and a lot of people get rekt and this 1:42:08.940,1:42:15.210 pain and a few people pay the price for 1:42:11.340,1:42:18.349 many but in the end inflation it's not 1:42:15.210,1:42:21.119 all bad it's just it's just a concept of 1:42:18.349,1:42:24.059 that this theory of money means that 1:42:21.119,1:42:26.639 they try to stimulate economies by by 1:42:24.059,1:42:29.039 choosing how the value where the value 1:42:26.639,1:42:31.409 is put in the beginning and hope the 1:42:29.039,1:42:33.239 economy grows into that value whereas 1:42:31.409,1:42:34.940 deflationary I mean we don't really know 1:42:33.239,1:42:37.499 how a deflationary economy will function 1:42:34.940,1:42:39.479 maybe it won't be as good as inflation 1:42:37.499,1:42:41.760 anyone I don't know it is a little bit 1:42:39.479,1:42:44.400 scary to think of you know the cost of 1:42:41.760,1:42:46.469 everything going up and over time and 1:42:44.400,1:42:48.809 the value of your money going up over 1:42:46.469,1:42:51.329 time and people being scared to spend 1:42:48.809,1:42:53.690 their Bitcoin instead of so it's a 1:42:51.329,1:42:55.949 little bit inverse to what we have now 1:42:53.690,1:42:57.809 maybe what happens is we end up having 1:42:55.949,1:43:00.329 both we end up having a hybrid where 1:42:57.809,1:43:02.340 there's there's an inflationary dominant 1:43:00.329,1:43:06.059 money like USD and Bitcoin and they 1:43:02.340,1:43:08.249 coexist forever who knows no and just 1:43:06.059,1:43:15.719 for the record that's called the Kantian 1:43:08.249,1:43:19.110 effect the AMT I ll ln this is for 1:43:15.719,1:43:22.620 deflationary money or none of that when 1:43:19.110,1:43:24.270 money gets printed it first gets to the 1:43:22.620,1:43:28.290 elites and it's them who actually 1:43:24.270,1:43:30.660 benefit from more money and by the time 1:43:28.290,1:43:34.410 it gets to the employees or people who 1:43:30.660,1:43:36.930 are at the bottom of the pyramid the 1:43:34.410,1:43:40.530 inflation has kicked in and the money 1:43:36.930,1:43:43.140 itself has lost value and when the bags 1:43:40.530,1:43:46.260 or whatever get the fresh freshly 1:43:43.140,1:43:50.219 printed money they buy assets which are 1:43:46.260,1:43:52.500 deflationary and actually gain go up in 1:43:50.219,1:43:54.960 price over time I wanted to say gain 1:43:52.500,1:43:58.050 value but value is different from price 1:43:54.960,1:44:00.390 I understand yeah yeah well it makes 1:43:58.050,1:44:02.160 sense and this is what we see we see the 1:44:00.390,1:44:04.380 the rich getting richer and the powerful 1:44:02.160,1:44:06.510 getting more power and as long as they 1:44:04.380,1:44:08.820 keep you know taking things that are 1:44:06.510,1:44:11.730 limited in quantity like real estate and 1:44:08.820,1:44:14.250 commodities and then they will continue 1:44:11.730,1:44:17.310 that as for as long as you let them but 1:44:14.250,1:44:20.250 I think in the end everything has to pay 1:44:17.310,1:44:22.080 the piper in the end even even people at 1:44:20.250,1:44:24.030 the top of an inflationary system it 1:44:22.080,1:44:25.770 might just be that you need you need a 1:44:24.030,1:44:29.489 Bitcoin to come around every thousand 1:44:25.770,1:44:33.480 years to fix it and that's a very 1:44:29.489,1:44:36.540 positive thoughts as I guess if you end 1:44:33.480,1:44:38.610 this I had no idea after I called the 1:44:36.540,1:44:40.500 ending and I asked what was supposed to 1:44:38.610,1:44:42.540 be the last question when we got in and 1:44:40.500,1:44:46.170 spoke more about economics which I'm 1:44:42.540,1:44:48.390 glad we did I had no idea how to end it 1:44:46.170,1:44:49.800 but it's a good start to have that every 1:44:48.390,1:44:52.410 thousand years you have something like 1:44:49.800,1:44:56.340 Bitcoin which comes in and saves all the 1:44:52.410,1:44:58.980 mess that has been created so thank you 1:44:56.340,1:45:01.010 Johnny yeah I mean I'm not an economist 1:44:58.980,1:45:04.530 and I'm just kind of halfway 1:45:01.010,1:45:06.330 talking out my ass here but I do like to 1:45:04.530,1:45:09.120 think about it as I did like talking 1:45:06.330,1:45:10.980 stuff even if I'm not just just gonna 1:45:09.120,1:45:12.840 disclaim I'm not an expert and I'm just 1:45:10.980,1:45:16.500 somebody that thinks about a lot of 1:45:12.840,1:45:18.150 stuff and hopefully it's it's always 1:45:16.500,1:45:20.040 interesting to talk to you because you 1:45:18.150,1:45:22.020 have all these insights and I'm not sure 1:45:20.040,1:45:24.719 how much of what you said in this 1:45:22.020,1:45:27.630 podcast was new and how much was 1:45:24.719,1:45:28.820 actually repeated from other interviews 1:45:27.630,1:45:31.160 that you do on a regular 1:45:28.820,1:45:34.520 basis but I'm happy that we have done 1:45:31.160,1:45:36.560 this I'm happy too man 1:45:34.520,1:45:39.740 thank you for having me thank you for 1:45:36.560,1:45:45.200 being here and I hope this is going to 1:45:39.740,1:45:47.840 be a hip happy to I mean you know it's 1:45:45.200,1:45:50.390 pointless unless people listen to this 1:45:47.840,1:45:52.060 it's just wasted time which maybe helps 1:45:50.390,1:45:54.610 us learn something more from each other 1:45:52.060,1:45:58.610 but the information is made to be 1:45:54.610,1:46:03.380 distributed and used in educational 1:45:58.610,1:46:08.570 purposes the best information travels 1:46:03.380,1:46:13.390 the most so we'll see Oh we'll see so 1:46:08.570,1:46:13.390 thank you again no problem