S2 E5: Karo Zagorus on Bitcoin in Hungary and the Sociology of BTC

On June 29th 2019, I’ve had the pleasure to talk to the Hungarian bitcoiner and sociologist Karo Zagorus. As a member of the Bitcoin Plebs movement on Twitter and Telegram, the academic often resorts to memes and moralistic name-calling of scammers. But when he gets the chance to speak his mind and tackle important issues, Karo proves himself to be an articulate and well-informed conversationalist.

Throughout the 90 minutes of this podcast, you will get to find out more information about the Bitcoin communities from Hungary and their significance, while also getting a better understanding of how political elites may make use of Satoshi Nakamoto’s invention.

Since both of us come from Central and Eastern European countries and have similar academic backgrounds, you will be able to find many points of convergence. Obviously, not everything is the same and you will get to hear about some social phenomena that are unique in either Romania or Hungary.

If you’d like to listen to the episode, you can find it on both YouTube and Apple Podcasts. If you need a quicker way of accessing the content, you may also use the RSS feed. All of the sources are hyperlinked.

Automatic Transcript (helps with SEO):

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[Music]

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[Music]

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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the Bitcoin

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takeover

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I am glad and my guest today is the

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Hungarian Bitcoin there Carozza chorus

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who is a member of the very burgeoning

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and rather expanding and interesting

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movement of Bitcoin plebs who are

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establishing groups on telegram and

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trying to basically talk Bitcoin matters

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as individuals who have educated

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themselves and have reached a level

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where they no longer require to follow

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big figures and influencers and to me

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it's very interesting that we get to do

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podcasts with people or rather unknown

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within the larger community but are part

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of a niche which in itself is trying to

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find its own identity and establish

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itself as a force within the larger

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Bitcoin community so hello Caro

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ok nice thank you nice to meet you too

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how is it going it's going fine quite

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quite a hot letter in Hungary but it's

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doing ok yeah I heard that you're doing

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a master's in social sciences and it's

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interesting with these Bitcoin plebs

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that I'm also part of that we're not

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quite plebs all of us are pretty

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educated individuals who have a lot of

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interesting stuff to say so do you work

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on anything related to Bitcoin in

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regards to your research well basically

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what I'm doing is I'm examining how

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institutions are breaching our trust and

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how this is basically X trading bitcoins

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adoption process and just you can't mean

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like how how like banks are you know

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abusing people's money producing like

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the value creating and then how earlier

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you kind of misusing that the deposit

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for different banks for example and how

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they kind of stabilizes people stress

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tours banks that's actually

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the topic to research but what is the

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scale of it or what kind of sources or

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examples you provide basically I'm in a

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couple books then I've been moving into

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like the first I read was a was

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examining at how Francis Fukuyama in his

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book called trust was was describing how

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Trust is formed how you know the the

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culture you know going to be born into

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in in countries and places and you know

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like how it kind of divides the baby

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trust things like a like like for some

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in Asian countries how it's harder to

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get out and get out out of the family

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structures of trust and start bringing

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other people into into your trust

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it was resentful equity companies and he

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was really looking into these things

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like how you know they can create

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posterity throughout you know with

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larger corporations and then their

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family is not enough to keep companies

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running and it was kind of interesting

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to me that kind of gave me the the basis

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for understanding trust how it kind of

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functions and you know I could sort of

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entering into the more the banking world

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with with Lisa severance book called

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dawn banking America it was quite an

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interesting take on like how basically

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America's lowering the classes being

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pushed out of the banking system how do

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you becoming more unpack their on their

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bank and like how this whole system

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becomes much more unaccessible for them

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and and more it's kind of shocking for

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me that more than 180 128 million people

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in America are basically financially

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struggling and then even offer they

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don't even have access to normal and

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financial services and they kind of

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forced to use check cashing services

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like write check or payday lenders for

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them that's interesting knowing that we

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are speaking of the most developed

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country in the world which also sets the

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standard to the rest of the world yeah

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like it's quite stunning that the

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America supposed to be land the screen

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in the most of this country and powerful

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country on earth but when you look at

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like how they are clearing your the

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checks for your dumpling banks it takes

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like four days to clear cheque but for

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example in in Europe famous usually live

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within a day or so or two

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or two three days really much for sooner

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in the SEPA zone but but it just just

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quite starting from me that the the

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system they're using is just so book

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down appears to me like that you know

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the lobbied that banks have and all kind

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of organizations that are out there are

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basically keeping the system as you know

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full of friction then you know you know

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removing these kind of frictions and

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then you know their comments in the

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companies that leave the server on and

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talks about I cannot think she was

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bamboo still at some point is she kind

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of went to talk about a company that I

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really hate I think I should say its

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name but they also in the blockchain

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space they are the certain biggest

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cryptocurrency there I would still

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really big shit coin and she just

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totally failed to understand the

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underlying problem here because in the

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end book she never really thinks about

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doctor and sees what did coin and this

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is interesting because she was out there

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to you know figure out what is the

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problem and how it can be solved if

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instead she she just resorted back to

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the old system that we have and look for

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like alternative companies offering

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ultimate financial institutions that

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provide like better service like venmo

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or or I don't know what I asked she was

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talking about it was interesting for me

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she totally missed the point of the

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entire thing and she didn't even

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consider it which I find really shocking

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in her book could you say again who this

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is about because I'm not sure if the

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signal is bad or I wasn't paying enough

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attention but I didn't catch okay

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Kristen it's it leaves a Sarah bond and

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Fe are gon okay I'm banking America how

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the new middle class survives so you

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read her book yeah now at the entire

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disagreements well quite some

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disagreements III don't really think

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that she was approaching it from the

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right way

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mostly partly because she was stuck in

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the old world but I cannot consider most

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people are stuck in especially the

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educated people who don't really believe

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and it's going and other kind of

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things you know and then and then after

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prefers stuff for the mousse is a to

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Bitcoin standard kana you know totally

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changed the theory of my thesis I was

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working on because you know in the

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beginning I kind of thought that the

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trust was somehow was being eroded

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naturally that from the 80s something

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have happened and it was accelerated by

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the 2008 financial crisis but it wasn't

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like that it started much more earlier

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with the Keynesian economics kinda you

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know changed how society functions it

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raised people's time preference up high

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and then you know how governments are

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using aggregate is stunning you know

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raise GDP level and things like that and

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it just originated from Kingston self

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and it's kinda you know is now you know

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the consequence of that system that we

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we have right now and it's interesting

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that even today they are still being

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taught about these genies in economics

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right now it's just shocking

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for me at least well there is a lot of

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people who trust the system and don't

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see any points of changing it and they

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will reply to any criticism in the lines

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of we are working on it and it can be

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better and whatever that they're going

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to point out that they have done

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something which worked they will say

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well we have taken many nations out of

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poverty with this system of relentless

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and never-ending loans that countries

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take without ever doing so wrong they

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will be paying back and along the lines

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of what you said you reminded me of what

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Nick Szabo has written and he is a

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first-generation American whose father

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was Hungarian so I guess you have a lot

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in common with him but he wrote very

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interesting research papers on social

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scalability and how trust propagates

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along societies I didn't manage to read

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any of his work right now I was dying to

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read shelling out and after the next

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book I'm reading because I have to read

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max papers book called

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was it I think it was the spirit of

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capitalism

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and the Protestant work ethic and the

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spirit of capitalism but I wasn't really

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sure how I could tie this to the whole

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thing because I was told after the trend

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basically the thesis was transformed

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that I should read more about you know a

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society sociology but I just wasn't

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really sure about it probably gonna read

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it because there is probably something

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wrong I'm religion too but I don't know

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I'm not sure about it right now I'm not

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aware of any books that nick szabo might

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have written but he has that very

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well-documented blog of his where he he

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has a very long post about social skill

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ability and it relates to human biology

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and the way our brains work and the fact

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that since we have evolved as a species

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our brains have remained the same and

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maybe that we are capable of carrying

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about 50 people at a time but at the

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same time our societies have evolved

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into city-states

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much larger and metropolis and it's hard

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for us to actually be engaged and care

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about everybody when we are part of

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these societies and that's why he

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proposes technology as a way of reducing

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the amounts of trust and enabling us to

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have better solutions to govern

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ourselves he has some very interesting

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ideas which I guess most most are

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original mostly thanks to his expertise

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in smart contracts and cryptocurrencies

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yeah I mean really fascinating I do

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think that most thing you said is really

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really great but also we had to think

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about it's like you know like like how

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we can you know bridge trust because you

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can see that like in the modern world

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especially after that went to the

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internet you know trust become we have

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to become much more you know like how do

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I say not decentralized like we have to

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reach Bridgette because you know we can

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see it like how our trust is being

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eroded and you know when our trust is

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being eroded it's really impossible to

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reveal let's begin is a like for example

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if if we start distrusting politicians

0:11:46.810,0:11:50.350
for example and it's getting much more

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harder to choose another one another

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party we have to go to a different kind

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of process there to you know to choose

0:11:54.430,0:11:57.940
somebody it's very different and it's

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just kind of different and this is where

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the smart constricting starts coming in

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what summer was talking about it we

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could you know start putting laws and

0:12:03.790,0:12:07.750
regulation of the blockchain that are

0:12:05.320,0:12:09.370
much more you know transparent or

0:12:07.750,0:12:12.940
understandable and it's easier to you

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know to how do I say that like when

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there's litigation going on or something

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for example it could you know do

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something about it which I do agree with

0:12:20.560,0:12:24.400
it's just quite an interesting thought

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there most people was arguing against

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thing though but I think this is a

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really interesting point he said right

0:12:29.230,0:12:40.210
so how and why did it get into Bitcoin

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well basically around 2016 got into

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Bitcoin through one of my friend who

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gave me a little bit and I kind of spent

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it because the price was kind of

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crashing at that time and afterwards I

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can you don't forget about it because

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you know I kind of didn't really care

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about it I first time at its coiner

0:12:57.640,0:13:02.950
around in 2011 when I heard about it I

0:13:00.640,0:13:07.090
thought about of at home and I can't

0:13:02.950,0:13:09.760
examine it might equal in 2010 I think

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it's the 2011 yeah and and then I didn't

0:13:09.760,0:13:13.150
really care about it I kind of thought

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it was a Ponzi scheme and everything

0:13:13.150,0:13:19.330
else even during 2016 I was like you

0:13:15.130,0:13:23.950
know thinking on these terms but then it

0:13:19.330,0:13:26.890
can I you know started changing more

0:13:23.950,0:13:28.120
into the ways like let's say investing

0:13:26.890,0:13:31.090
into things trying to you know make

0:13:28.120,0:13:33.130
money and especially in 2017 and that's

0:13:31.090,0:13:36.760
when I you know I got into the got

0:13:33.130,0:13:37.810
intimated coin I said earlier and I kind

0:13:36.760,0:13:40.780
of you know made a little bit of money

0:13:37.810,0:13:42.250
on it and after the price of the

0:13:40.780,0:13:44.470
crashing I you know started thinking

0:13:42.250,0:13:46.900
about this whole thing what these things

0:13:44.470,0:13:49.270
are and how they work and this is how

0:13:46.900,0:13:50.230
you like how I kind of naturally develop

0:13:49.270,0:13:52.270
this thinking about you know

0:13:50.230,0:13:53.200
cryptocurrency is a good point like how

0:13:52.270,0:13:55.269
they kind of function

0:13:53.200,0:13:58.600
they do what they achieve and why they

0:13:55.269,0:14:01.690
exist and that's how I can arrest point

0:13:58.600,0:14:03.730
that point that everything I did so far

0:14:01.690,0:14:07.680
was just you know just interacting with

0:14:03.730,0:14:09.880
scam coins or all kinds of bullshit and

0:14:07.680,0:14:11.949
basically just doesn't really hurt the

0:14:09.880,0:14:13.720
way I wanted it to work and that's when

0:14:11.949,0:14:15.550
I realized that there's nothing else

0:14:13.720,0:14:17.889
beyond it coin that actually makes sense

0:14:15.550,0:14:20.410
or or has any point in through its

0:14:17.889,0:14:22.089
existence and then I started looking at

0:14:20.410,0:14:25.149
other things like what kind of a culture

0:14:22.089,0:14:27.070
Bitcoin created to anthropological true

0:14:25.149,0:14:30.510
for the distances is quite stunning you

0:14:27.070,0:14:34.870
can see all art music pictures means

0:14:30.510,0:14:37.269
everything on the Internet you can see

0:14:34.870,0:14:41.500
things like the changes it brings into

0:14:37.269,0:14:43.839
society the like how it dramatically

0:14:41.500,0:14:46.269
lowered my time preference figures I'm

0:14:43.839,0:14:49.269
sorry that's just crazy I used to spend

0:14:46.269,0:14:52.889
a lot more money than then before course

0:14:49.269,0:14:55.570
it's like I mean then right now I mean

0:14:52.889,0:14:57.190
it's also interesting and it just kind

0:14:55.570,0:14:59.890
of like you know keeps me confirming the

0:14:57.190,0:15:01.570
theory that this is the only system that

0:14:59.890,0:15:05.680
actually makes sense and this is the

0:15:01.570,0:15:07.690
only system basically oh I'm not sure if

0:15:05.680,0:15:10.300
it's the only system but it's a very

0:15:07.690,0:15:12.970
good solution to counter the current

0:15:10.300,0:15:16.720
economic and political forces that we

0:15:12.970,0:15:19.089
are dealing with in this world and I was

0:15:16.720,0:15:21.490
having this conversation earlier with

0:15:19.089,0:15:25.720
Raj a guy from India pom I've

0:15:21.490,0:15:29.050
interviewed and he I basically asked him

0:15:25.720,0:15:33.070
how do we distinguish Bitcoin from a

0:15:29.050,0:15:34.930
cult and even though I had an idea in my

0:15:33.070,0:15:37.300
mind which I was ready to present he

0:15:34.930,0:15:40.600
said no we are a cult I'm fine with the

0:15:37.300,0:15:43.089
idea we are a bona fide cult which has

0:15:40.600,0:15:44.410
all the elements and I don't see why

0:15:43.089,0:15:46.720
there's anything wrong with it

0:15:44.410,0:15:50.139
and I was partially surprised by the

0:15:46.720,0:15:52.779
answer as at least we in the West have a

0:15:50.139,0:15:57.339
different understanding of what cults

0:15:52.779,0:16:00.430
are but he also had educated explanation

0:15:57.339,0:16:03.010
on why we are a cult and why it's

0:16:00.430,0:16:06.190
important for us to propagate some

0:16:03.010,0:16:06.940
ideological perspectives in order to

0:16:06.190,0:16:09.610
make Bitcoin

0:16:06.940,0:16:12.730
scale and why each of us is incentivized

0:16:09.610,0:16:18.030
to talk about Bitcoin to everybody

0:16:12.730,0:16:18.030
around them in order to spread adoption

0:16:19.260,0:16:27.820
colleges I think there is probably some

0:16:24.720,0:16:29.920
behavior here but you know you need to

0:16:27.820,0:16:32.590
like gonna look at some other underlying

0:16:29.920,0:16:35.020
things too like for example ever since

0:16:32.590,0:16:37.990
the end of World War two we had more

0:16:35.020,0:16:40.600
than 60 years of 60 years of peace right

0:16:37.990,0:16:42.730
now and and you know this is basically

0:16:40.600,0:16:45.940
because of you know how he was able to

0:16:42.730,0:16:47.350
reach consensus and you know this kind

0:16:45.940,0:16:48.880
of reflects thoughts in Bitcoin that

0:16:47.350,0:16:50.590
that people finally were able to you

0:16:48.880,0:16:52.720
know find consensus in value

0:16:50.590,0:16:55.420
it's like value basically transformed

0:16:52.720,0:16:58.090
for them and and even you know true

0:16:55.420,0:17:00.850
technology and now it is able to have a

0:16:58.090,0:17:03.910
constant value not that you're producing

0:17:00.850,0:17:05.410
money in in some burger job and then

0:17:03.910,0:17:07.120
you're hearing like let's feel like 3000

0:17:05.410,0:17:08.709
euros and then the European Central

0:17:07.120,0:17:10.180
Bank's basic needs it's the money and

0:17:08.709,0:17:11.770
then a couple years later you only have

0:17:10.180,0:17:14.949
like two thousand eight hundred even

0:17:11.770,0:17:16.630
less and this is interesting because the

0:17:14.949,0:17:19.060
whole thing that Bitcoin keep I mean the

0:17:16.630,0:17:20.650
whole you know it kind of gives us the

0:17:19.060,0:17:23.110
inherent value for Bitcoin is basically

0:17:20.650,0:17:25.060
the societal consensus behind it that

0:17:23.110,0:17:27.400
people agree on it that it is a form of

0:17:25.060,0:17:28.930
money that the free market decided on it

0:17:27.400,0:17:31.360
and and basically this is a really

0:17:28.930,0:17:33.490
beautiful thing and and you know this

0:17:31.360,0:17:35.680
here comes in the cult the cult aspect

0:17:33.490,0:17:37.240
basically they're not really a call to

0:17:35.680,0:17:39.220
spectrum or like even like like a

0:17:37.240,0:17:42.190
defense mechanism you know but this

0:17:39.220,0:17:44.170
kinda can be more toxic maximalism

0:17:42.190,0:17:45.970
basically that you know people will

0:17:44.170,0:17:48.790
really care about it because they see

0:17:45.970,0:17:50.770
that what kind of a promising future it

0:17:48.790,0:17:53.440
can bring and people kind of you know

0:17:50.770,0:17:55.810
start defending its value proposition

0:17:53.440,0:17:57.940
and start prepare defending it from

0:17:55.810,0:18:01.050
outside attackers try to impede on its

0:17:57.940,0:18:04.600
value or its or it's a rich technology

0:18:01.050,0:18:09.250
like you can see like how the the no 2x

0:18:04.600,0:18:12.160
or you ASF movements kind of play down

0:18:09.250,0:18:14.950
and basically that kind of nutshell

0:18:12.160,0:18:20.570
beasts me tells like how the space is

0:18:14.950,0:18:23.840
and and just really great so

0:18:20.570,0:18:25.850
the Bitcoin scene like in Hungary I know

0:18:23.840,0:18:28.549
that we come from neighboring countries

0:18:25.850,0:18:30.139
but honestly I think I've only been to

0:18:28.549,0:18:32.720
Hungary a couple of times and it was

0:18:30.139,0:18:36.860
only Budapest and I was not into Bitcoin

0:18:32.720,0:18:40.070
at the time oh yeah it's quite an

0:18:36.860,0:18:43.070
interesting story I managed to get into

0:18:40.070,0:18:45.289
Hungarian crypto trader group which was

0:18:43.070,0:18:46.610
I think was the only one that was

0:18:45.289,0:18:48.169
operation but I'm not really sure about

0:18:46.610,0:18:50.630
it I was banned in a couple minutes

0:18:48.169,0:18:52.009
after that because I were just talking

0:18:50.630,0:18:54.259
about Bitcoin and like how they should

0:18:52.009,0:18:57.440
coins out you know being for data in the

0:18:54.259,0:19:00.460
group and didn't really like it but I

0:18:57.440,0:19:03.529
know a couple guys who also live nearby

0:19:00.460,0:19:05.720
they are also more into eater and that's

0:19:03.529,0:19:09.110
quite a problem and a kind of pattern

0:19:05.720,0:19:10.549
that I see here that Hungarians always

0:19:09.110,0:19:13.429
tried to look for something better and

0:19:10.549,0:19:15.470
they never really content with with the

0:19:13.429,0:19:17.330
new things that kind of make sense for

0:19:15.470,0:19:19.759
them like they only want to improve on

0:19:17.330,0:19:22.070
things they don't only find useful for

0:19:19.759,0:19:23.809
them and that's how you know somehow I

0:19:22.070,0:19:26.179
kind of thinking that the more the more

0:19:23.809,0:19:28.580
Hungarians are using ET right now then

0:19:26.179,0:19:30.500
probably Bitcoin because they're not

0:19:28.580,0:19:31.610
really understanding the whole aspect of

0:19:30.500,0:19:34.340
it or you're just trying to you know

0:19:31.610,0:19:35.960
make money through speculation and it's

0:19:34.340,0:19:37.639
kind of said that I never really managed

0:19:35.960,0:19:39.169
to get under the best to see you know

0:19:37.639,0:19:42.200
bitcoins faces because I don't really

0:19:39.169,0:19:45.470
like networking or talking talking with

0:19:42.200,0:19:50.570
hungarians is just quite alien for

0:19:45.470,0:19:54.529
either the whole culture yeah yeah quite

0:19:50.570,0:19:57.830
a long time but let's say that I come to

0:19:54.529,0:20:01.429
Hungary one day and I have no money and

0:19:57.830,0:20:04.610
I have to survive only with some

0:20:01.429,0:20:08.419
bitcoins will I be able to buy stuff or

0:20:04.610,0:20:09.740
convince people to accept Bitcoin you

0:20:08.419,0:20:12.980
feel really able to buy

0:20:09.740,0:20:15.649
electronical stuff I know that and

0:20:12.980,0:20:17.480
there's a company called I don't want to

0:20:15.649,0:20:20.059
start this but there is a major

0:20:17.480,0:20:21.860
electrics company and hungry that accept

0:20:20.059,0:20:25.250
Bitcoin but they're using the place so

0:20:21.860,0:20:27.139
that's quite an honor but the audit I

0:20:25.250,0:20:29.389
don't think you could say you could buy

0:20:27.139,0:20:31.460
food with it I don't really know any

0:20:29.389,0:20:33.110
places really combined I know there's

0:20:31.460,0:20:36.260
some jewelers here

0:20:33.110,0:20:38.930
and accept it I'm not really sure you

0:20:36.260,0:20:41.540
would survive to be honest it's not that

0:20:38.930,0:20:44.720
advanced here I've read an article in

0:20:41.540,0:20:48.560
Bitcoin magazine about a year ago or

0:20:44.720,0:20:51.800
something do you still hear me yeah I

0:20:48.560,0:20:53.540
can still hear magazine I got a message

0:20:51.800,0:20:54.830
on my screen which said that my

0:20:53.540,0:20:57.830
connection is unstable

0:20:54.830,0:21:00.080
do you still hear me okay I'm here okay

0:20:57.830,0:21:03.020
so there was an article in Bitcoin

0:21:00.080,0:21:05.150
magazine which I read and it was about a

0:21:03.020,0:21:09.940
guy who tried to survive for a whole

0:21:05.150,0:21:09.940
week only on Bitcoin in San Francisco

0:21:12.220,0:21:18.530
Ellie actually yeah I think I've seen

0:21:16.280,0:21:20.870
the Burlington version and I think there

0:21:18.530,0:21:25.250
was a German guy I don't I think it was

0:21:20.870,0:21:26.450
him from CDF well I say the F oh I saw

0:21:25.250,0:21:31.250
the other one else's so it's quite

0:21:26.450,0:21:34.310
interesting but the conclusion from 2018

0:21:31.250,0:21:35.990
with this article about a guy trying to

0:21:34.310,0:21:39.500
survive with Bitcoin in Silicon Valley

0:21:35.990,0:21:42.260
was that the adoption for Bitcoin has

0:21:39.500,0:21:45.260
actually decreased in terms of merchants

0:21:42.260,0:21:47.540
acceptance and it was more likely for

0:21:45.260,0:21:50.630
people to accept eater or some kind of

0:21:47.540,0:21:53.480
shit coin which the shops were believing

0:21:50.630,0:21:56.810
and and Bitcoin just because at the time

0:21:53.480,0:22:00.050
there was this whole scaling debate or

0:21:56.810,0:22:03.140
post debate after the scaling debate and

0:22:00.050,0:22:05.810
there was this idea that Bitcoin should

0:22:03.140,0:22:08.000
not be used as money and there's more of

0:22:05.810,0:22:11.330
a store value and it doesn't scale and

0:22:08.000,0:22:13.010
it has high fees and whatever yeah

0:22:11.330,0:22:16.280
that's interesting you know the whole

0:22:13.010,0:22:18.830
thing the the drama with fuse like how

0:22:16.280,0:22:21.530
you kind of started and how steel Roger

0:22:18.830,0:22:23.540
where the scammer is still talking

0:22:21.530,0:22:24.890
always about you know high fees vidcom

0:22:23.540,0:22:28.640
but I don't see that high fees in

0:22:24.890,0:22:30.530
Bitcoin I can always send you know just

0:22:28.640,0:22:32.180
like to set Servite or one set of a

0:22:30.530,0:22:35.600
transactions and they confirm in a

0:22:32.180,0:22:37.760
couple days I don't have to hurry but I

0:22:35.600,0:22:40.010
don't understand their problem still

0:22:37.760,0:22:42.620
because for example if I accept bitcoins

0:22:40.010,0:22:43.630
result in a store and I use a service

0:22:42.620,0:22:45.039
provider

0:22:43.630,0:22:47.890
usually those service providers will

0:22:45.039,0:22:50.559
demand a mining fee higher than you know

0:22:47.890,0:22:52.179
you cannot basically set it manually and

0:22:50.559,0:22:54.460
then you know that it kind of raises the

0:22:52.179,0:22:56.919
total amount you're paying and this

0:22:54.460,0:22:59.200
kinda makes it much harder for for

0:22:56.919,0:23:00.640
somebody who it's going to you know to

0:22:59.200,0:23:01.990
buy it because then you're gonna start

0:23:00.640,0:23:03.520
thinking about it do I really need this

0:23:01.990,0:23:06.429
product because it costs way too much

0:23:03.520,0:23:09.070
babies extra fee and doing things and

0:23:06.429,0:23:10.750
that you know the costs costs are quite

0:23:09.070,0:23:14.110
shady for me also because I don't really

0:23:10.750,0:23:17.559
see behind the pacer process how they

0:23:14.110,0:23:19.840
are you know changing the basis of the

0:23:17.559,0:23:21.760
received amount into the fiat currency

0:23:19.840,0:23:24.960
it's something what I want to also look

0:23:21.760,0:23:27.070
into but it's just interesting and

0:23:24.960,0:23:28.600
basically why they start transitioning

0:23:27.070,0:23:30.820
to other currencies because they have

0:23:28.600,0:23:33.010
better fee structure probably or because

0:23:30.820,0:23:35.679
they confirm much more sooner but it

0:23:33.010,0:23:39.010
just adjusted substituting a really bad

0:23:35.679,0:23:40.960
coin for good I mean a really good coin

0:23:39.010,0:23:42.940
with a really bad coin what I would say

0:23:40.960,0:23:46.360
and it just doesn't really work like

0:23:42.940,0:23:48.159
that I think in the meantime there has

0:23:46.360,0:23:51.760
been some kind of institutional

0:23:48.159,0:23:54.340
awakening and people have figured out

0:23:51.760,0:23:57.490
what it is that makes Bitcoin special

0:23:54.340,0:24:00.450
except for what they used to code as the

0:23:57.490,0:24:00.450
first mover's advantage

0:24:01.230,0:24:08.289
hmm that's interesting not really sure

0:24:05.500,0:24:10.600
about that but I do think that there is

0:24:08.289,0:24:13.330
probably like institutional that

0:24:10.600,0:24:14.919
conspiracy here that I'm thinking you

0:24:13.330,0:24:19.210
know like we're trying to you know

0:24:14.919,0:24:21.280
enforce changes on Bitcoin like for

0:24:19.210,0:24:22.390
example you know with the fees I'm not

0:24:21.280,0:24:24.820
sure if you ever thought about this

0:24:22.390,0:24:26.950
before like when people are sending

0:24:24.820,0:24:28.870
transactions they're they're forced you

0:24:26.950,0:24:31.690
know pay higher fees because because the

0:24:28.870,0:24:34.090
application cannot suggest them to do

0:24:31.690,0:24:35.740
that transaction with that amount of

0:24:34.090,0:24:40.809
fees and then they end up being it

0:24:35.740,0:24:43.330
anyway so but the thing with with

0:24:40.809,0:24:45.700
industry I mean institutional adoption I

0:24:43.330,0:24:48.880
don't really see that much I see that

0:24:45.700,0:24:50.919
that the eBay is is so exacting Bitcoin

0:24:48.880,0:24:53.110
and other currencies I see that the

0:24:50.919,0:24:54.669
Microsoft we can pay for for services

0:24:53.110,0:24:56.650
they're on their side for sure or

0:24:54.669,0:25:02.540
something

0:24:56.650,0:25:05.030
not not that much else basically well in

0:25:02.540,0:25:07.070
the United States there's a lot of buzz

0:25:05.030,0:25:11.440
about it I'm not sure what it's like in

0:25:07.070,0:25:17.380
Hungary right now if there is anything

0:25:11.440,0:25:21.230
there's nothing other than 200 220 volt

0:25:17.380,0:25:23.380
Hungary like I only consider them well

0:25:21.230,0:25:26.090
the major exchange I mean the major

0:25:23.380,0:25:29.090
electronics retail that accepts Bitcoin

0:25:26.090,0:25:31.760
other than that nothing really basically

0:25:29.090,0:25:36.170
do you have any kind of law in place

0:25:31.760,0:25:40.120
which makes a taxes or no that's really

0:25:36.170,0:25:44.210
interesting perfect looking into

0:25:40.120,0:25:47.450
basically we don't have any and this is

0:25:44.210,0:25:50.270
interesting why I have a theory that

0:25:47.450,0:25:52.550
it's possible that the members of the

0:25:50.270,0:25:54.440
Hungarian government are already deep in

0:25:52.550,0:25:57.470
crypto currencies were they trying to

0:25:54.440,0:25:59.420
you know embezzle funds into and kind of

0:25:57.470,0:26:02.900
like you know use it as a safe haven and

0:25:59.420,0:26:05.480
I got a text even for them and for that

0:26:02.900,0:26:07.580
reason they're basically what they're

0:26:05.480,0:26:10.370
doing is they're not introducing in any

0:26:07.580,0:26:12.800
any kind of tax rules for that any kind

0:26:10.370,0:26:14.690
of regulation for the space because it

0:26:12.800,0:26:18.320
would kind of impede on their ability to

0:26:14.690,0:26:20.690
you know to to do siphon out Hungarian

0:26:18.320,0:26:23.360
forint into other currencies for example

0:26:20.690,0:26:24.680
and this we've got problematic for them

0:26:23.360,0:26:27.080
because then they would have to report

0:26:24.680,0:26:29.150
these to the to the national tax office

0:26:27.080,0:26:31.040
and then you know people would be able

0:26:29.150,0:26:32.870
to see their their their amount of

0:26:31.040,0:26:35.240
cryptocurrencies that they own on their

0:26:32.870,0:26:36.740
of the checks records and I think this

0:26:35.240,0:26:38.690
wouldn't really work for them basically

0:26:36.740,0:26:40.790
so that's one thing that they're they're

0:26:38.690,0:26:42.050
you're also doing this and the other

0:26:40.790,0:26:43.910
thing is that they don't we wanna you

0:26:42.050,0:26:46.340
know tell people that they should be

0:26:43.910,0:26:47.810
using these ever of course people

0:26:46.340,0:26:49.730
talking on national television about

0:26:47.810,0:26:51.800
Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies but

0:26:49.730,0:26:53.270
but these are usually not in primetime

0:26:51.800,0:26:55.520
when you know most people would just

0:26:53.270,0:26:57.700
watch it once all staying in periods and

0:26:55.520,0:27:00.980
retirees are usually watching these

0:26:57.700,0:27:03.050
difference in television basically so

0:27:00.980,0:27:04.870
it's not really making much too much

0:27:03.050,0:27:09.230
buzz about it

0:27:04.870,0:27:11.090
basically I think I thought about what

0:27:09.230,0:27:14.360
you said a few times in terms of

0:27:11.090,0:27:18.170
politicians being involved into Bitcoin

0:27:14.360,0:27:20.060
and I remember back in January 2018 when

0:27:18.170,0:27:22.280
the governor of the Romanian Central

0:27:20.060,0:27:25.880
Bank made a statement about the price of

0:27:22.280,0:27:28.460
Bitcoin and the wording that he chose at

0:27:25.880,0:27:34.130
the time was that Bitcoin has returned

0:27:28.460,0:27:35.720
to more rational value this guy must

0:27:34.130,0:27:38.810
have been watching the price for quite

0:27:35.720,0:27:41.630
some time and he didn't call it a Ponzi

0:27:38.810,0:27:44.180
he didn't try to deter people from

0:27:41.630,0:27:46.250
investing he just said just be careful

0:27:44.180,0:27:48.170
and pay attention and only invest as

0:27:46.250,0:27:52.700
much as you can lose which is something

0:27:48.170,0:27:55.600
any youtuber can say yeah and to me it

0:27:52.700,0:27:58.940
was surprising that I was expecting this

0:27:55.600,0:28:01.070
leader of the institution which

0:27:58.940,0:28:03.380
basically issues the national currency

0:28:01.070,0:28:05.330
of Romania to say stay away from this

0:28:03.380,0:28:08.240
it's a it's bad it's a ponzi it's

0:28:05.330,0:28:11.600
whatever whatever people say to preserve

0:28:08.240,0:28:15.410
the system but he was pretty balanced

0:28:11.600,0:28:17.960
and to me it was a big surprise it made

0:28:15.410,0:28:21.670
me think okay this guy must know much

0:28:17.960,0:28:24.620
more and must be involved in it somehow

0:28:21.670,0:28:26.960
yeah just something I forgot to tell you

0:28:24.620,0:28:29.830
like here in Hungary we actually have us

0:28:26.960,0:28:32.540
thirty five point four percent tax rate

0:28:29.830,0:28:35.210
wait or thirty four point five percent

0:28:32.540,0:28:36.950
tax rate in photos or for crypto

0:28:35.210,0:28:38.900
currencies so if you make any kind of

0:28:36.950,0:28:40.760
transaction basically you need to pay

0:28:38.900,0:28:42.920
that amount of tax on it so I would I

0:28:40.760,0:28:44.420
consider a really big deterrent but this

0:28:42.920,0:28:46.310
is also interesting about central

0:28:44.420,0:28:49.220
glassware that like the Israeli finance

0:28:46.310,0:28:52.480
finance minister also we're saying that

0:28:49.220,0:28:55.400
that bitcoins body scanner to scan and

0:28:52.480,0:28:57.560
all other country's financial ministers

0:28:55.400,0:28:59.240
I mean they might say something

0:28:57.560,0:29:01.280
different probably because they were

0:28:59.240,0:29:03.260
involved in it I kind of think they are

0:29:01.280,0:29:05.000
and they are like you know trying to

0:29:03.260,0:29:07.940
figure it out how to you know keep

0:29:05.000,0:29:09.740
things working because I have a fear

0:29:07.940,0:29:11.690
about it that in a couple years from the

0:29:09.740,0:29:13.940
government's gonna start realizing that

0:29:11.690,0:29:16.830
they can either

0:29:13.940,0:29:18.390
kind of approved how they are I can

0:29:16.830,0:29:21.540
approve their operation like you know

0:29:18.390,0:29:25.260
like like either by taxation or by

0:29:21.540,0:29:27.809
reducing the total amount of taxes they

0:29:25.260,0:29:30.690
need to you know set out on to citizens

0:29:27.809,0:29:32.550
or let's say like or they gonna start

0:29:30.690,0:29:33.960
being afraid of the new system that

0:29:32.550,0:29:37.260
they're gonna see that their power is

0:29:33.960,0:29:38.850
slowly starting to evaporate and then

0:29:37.260,0:29:42.600
that's when they you're gonna start you

0:29:38.850,0:29:44.370
know we be afraid like you know the I

0:29:42.600,0:29:46.440
can India for example like with the

0:29:44.370,0:29:48.420
thing they giving out 10-year prison

0:29:46.440,0:29:50.700
sentences now or are they just planning

0:29:48.420,0:29:54.750
to do it for cryptocurrency ownership

0:29:50.700,0:29:57.420
just quite crazy you know you just made

0:29:54.750,0:30:00.900
me think of something so if you pay 30

0:29:57.420,0:30:03.800
something percent for Bitcoin purchases

0:30:00.900,0:30:06.179
that you make at that electronic store

0:30:03.800,0:30:09.270
how do they know that it was you who

0:30:06.179,0:30:11.280
paid for it so let's say that I have my

0:30:09.270,0:30:13.740
bitcoins and I want to buy you a

0:30:11.280,0:30:16.050
television and I send it to your house

0:30:13.740,0:30:18.600
and you're going to end up paying extra

0:30:16.050,0:30:21.630
tax for it right you're right

0:30:18.600,0:30:24.660
so how it works here is that I went to

0:30:21.630,0:30:27.900
the tax office desk and they said that

0:30:24.660,0:30:31.860
as long as no Hungarian forint enters

0:30:27.900,0:30:34.140
hungary or hungarian bank or a bank

0:30:31.860,0:30:36.030
account that is tied to hanging person's

0:30:34.140,0:30:38.670
name that reports the hungarian tax

0:30:36.030,0:30:41.100
office the the national text of this

0:30:38.670,0:30:43.290
won't be able to tech to enforce tax on

0:30:41.100,0:30:45.210
that person because for example when you

0:30:43.290,0:30:49.410
pay with cryptocurrencies for example at

0:30:45.210,0:30:55.290
a company you're basically not creating

0:30:49.410,0:30:56.940
a you know like a form of tax like some

0:30:55.290,0:30:59.429
some evidence for the tax office that

0:30:56.940,0:31:02.070
you basically paid but somehow the the

0:30:59.429,0:31:04.200
company just makes money and companies

0:31:02.070,0:31:07.470
don't need to you know report the name

0:31:04.200,0:31:08.670
of buyers that's that's one thing that

0:31:07.470,0:31:11.000
that you know doesn't really happen

0:31:08.670,0:31:13.590
you're like when you're going to a store

0:31:11.000,0:31:15.750
when you buy something at the counter

0:31:13.590,0:31:17.580
you know they use a system that's

0:31:15.750,0:31:19.140
already wired International Tax Office

0:31:17.580,0:31:21.390
the tax office gets the tax already

0:31:19.140,0:31:22.890
added to its record and then you know

0:31:21.390,0:31:24.720
that doesn't have a name at it I don't

0:31:22.890,0:31:26.200
really know who is doing it they only

0:31:24.720,0:31:28.420
see or you know

0:31:26.200,0:31:31.780
keeping things for you like for for like

0:31:28.420,0:31:34.810
you know warranties or or let's say for

0:31:31.780,0:31:36.670
shipping purposes so but I don't really

0:31:34.810,0:31:38.350
know if they actually transfer that

0:31:36.670,0:31:41.080
information what I highly doubt they do

0:31:38.350,0:31:43.420
because that would really you know buck

0:31:41.080,0:31:45.370
down the entire taxation system in

0:31:43.420,0:31:50.020
Hungary that's what I'm kind of

0:31:45.370,0:31:54.430
expecting here so what is the reason

0:31:50.020,0:31:56.140
behind your belief and bitcoin you think

0:31:54.430,0:32:00.100
that it solves any problems in your life

0:31:56.140,0:32:01.990
or do you identify it as a solution for

0:32:00.100,0:32:05.710
the long term or any of the problems

0:32:01.990,0:32:07.990
doing your country well basically it

0:32:05.710,0:32:12.070
solves everything and every problem that

0:32:07.990,0:32:14.770
I have that sounds like a cult and it

0:32:12.070,0:32:17.320
does sound like it but you know you can

0:32:14.770,0:32:18.280
I have to be in a given situation to

0:32:17.320,0:32:22.590
understand it

0:32:18.280,0:32:26.470
phrasing fiber lecture for example whose

0:32:22.590,0:32:29.170
husband is is member of the government

0:32:26.470,0:32:31.630
and recently they had a had an

0:32:29.170,0:32:33.160
increasing wages so they laid in

0:32:31.630,0:32:35.440
basically gave them a hundred percent

0:32:33.160,0:32:38.920
increase and they're making quite all

0:32:35.440,0:32:41.260
the money and and she told me that she

0:32:38.920,0:32:43.180
doesn't see any reason for using Bitcoin

0:32:41.260,0:32:45.100
and that's when I kind of started

0:32:43.180,0:32:47.650
thinking that that the hurt bubble

0:32:45.100,0:32:50.020
didn't burst yet because you know if I

0:32:47.650,0:32:52.360
would have heard vocalize my before that

0:32:50.020,0:32:53.920
bursts of the long ago that I would

0:32:52.360,0:32:56.140
still be comfortable using fiat

0:32:53.920,0:32:58.420
currencies and it's just a matter of

0:32:56.140,0:33:01.290
time for her to feel bad or to get into

0:32:58.420,0:33:04.930
the situation that you know kind of

0:33:01.290,0:33:08.020
makes her one to you know let's say buy

0:33:04.930,0:33:11.350
bitcoin and this is interesting because

0:33:08.020,0:33:13.720
you know for example John puto chica had

0:33:11.350,0:33:17.110
to be also in a given situation in the

0:33:13.720,0:33:19.060
Czech Republic doing the communism to

0:33:17.110,0:33:21.130
create the type of fields of thought

0:33:19.060,0:33:23.140
that he was doing because you know if he

0:33:21.130,0:33:25.120
wouldn't be in that given situation that

0:33:23.140,0:33:28.510
he was in he wouldn't have had the

0:33:25.120,0:33:31.900
fertile ground for you know growing

0:33:28.510,0:33:34.380
these ideas and then you know creating

0:33:31.900,0:33:36.610
best philosophical thought of its time

0:33:34.380,0:33:40.150
of course there's other philosophers

0:33:36.610,0:33:42.309
also like that really really glorious

0:33:40.150,0:33:43.779
but but he was really interesting

0:33:42.309,0:33:45.970
because he he was talking about

0:33:43.779,0:33:49.000
something also like like you know like

0:33:45.970,0:33:51.880
how new technology is able to enforce

0:33:49.000,0:33:54.279
new political ideology and this panel

0:33:51.880,0:33:56.679
you know grabbed me which was been

0:33:54.279,0:33:58.870
interesting because if you take a look

0:33:56.679,0:34:00.640
at for example the Bitcoin you can see

0:33:58.870,0:34:04.950
that this this whole thing basically

0:34:00.640,0:34:08.530
fits into the perspective of of

0:34:04.950,0:34:10.119
libertarianism so right so that was made

0:34:08.530,0:34:12.580
for the primary user group who started

0:34:10.119,0:34:15.790
using it and I started growing and so

0:34:12.580,0:34:18.330
much more broader other groups basically

0:34:15.790,0:34:20.560
like leftist rightist whatever else and

0:34:18.330,0:34:22.810
this was a problem that they had in

0:34:20.560,0:34:25.359
upended that the despotism didn't had to

0:34:22.810,0:34:27.580
felt our ground to grow their political

0:34:25.359,0:34:29.320
ideology but you know with the amount of

0:34:27.580,0:34:31.300
the internet it's going basically now

0:34:29.320,0:34:34.510
they have like they are able to you know

0:34:31.300,0:34:37.240
fulfill their their their folio ideology

0:34:34.510,0:34:39.040
is able to have complete financial

0:34:37.240,0:34:40.929
freedom for individuals through the use

0:34:39.040,0:34:44.710
of Bitcoin and this is really really

0:34:40.929,0:34:47.200
revolutionary and even here in Hungary I

0:34:44.710,0:34:48.490
mean how terrible the situation is again

0:34:47.200,0:34:50.290
I gave me time to you know think about

0:34:48.490,0:34:51.909
the whole situation and like you know

0:34:50.290,0:34:53.560
look for alternatives and then you know

0:34:51.909,0:34:55.089
kind of Bitcoin popped up for me and

0:34:53.560,0:34:58.480
something out of this whole mess here

0:34:55.089,0:35:00.339
and it's just kind of I just it was like

0:34:58.480,0:35:02.520
a really bad drug that I got on at once

0:35:00.339,0:35:04.930
and I and I can't get off of it anymore

0:35:02.520,0:35:07.630
it's something that you know kind of

0:35:04.930,0:35:09.880
makes me think every day it's just just

0:35:07.630,0:35:12.250
something that you're not able to stop

0:35:09.880,0:35:14.140
thinking about that it changes

0:35:12.250,0:35:16.480
everything that you see around you and

0:35:14.140,0:35:18.250
so dramatically that other people around

0:35:16.480,0:35:20.170
you don't even see it but you know about

0:35:18.250,0:35:21.609
it and you know what I did that that you

0:35:20.170,0:35:23.050
are probably at a much more advantage

0:35:21.609,0:35:25.060
position than other people and you want

0:35:23.050,0:35:26.410
to just kind of tell them about it to

0:35:25.060,0:35:28.599
let them know it too because you want to

0:35:26.410,0:35:31.390
share the prosperity probably or some

0:35:28.599,0:35:33.849
other reasons but this is really

0:35:31.390,0:35:36.160
interesting for me that it just changes

0:35:33.849,0:35:38.170
everything and permanently

0:35:36.160,0:35:40.630
our Sharif it is gonna be good the

0:35:38.170,0:35:42.490
transition that we're gonna have but but

0:35:40.630,0:35:43.810
the end goal that we have and the new

0:35:42.490,0:35:45.050
system that we're going to have is just

0:35:43.810,0:35:48.860
much better than the one

0:35:45.050,0:35:51.760
right now well that's also something

0:35:48.860,0:35:54.920
which I taught about a lot of times I

0:35:51.760,0:35:58.340
agree that bitcoin is great but how does

0:35:54.920,0:36:02.030
it work at a greater scale in terms not

0:35:58.340,0:36:05.620
of transaction output but adoption to

0:36:02.030,0:36:09.170
the extent that nation-states use it so

0:36:05.620,0:36:13.100
we'd be having a better financial system

0:36:09.170,0:36:16.250
if we only had bitcoins and would we as

0:36:13.100,0:36:18.500
a society agree that it's better to move

0:36:16.250,0:36:22.730
money around and give money to charities

0:36:18.500,0:36:24.590
and avoid individual greed in the sense

0:36:22.730,0:36:26.720
that you're going to have hoarders who

0:36:24.590,0:36:28.120
never remove their coins and then you're

0:36:26.720,0:36:31.900
going to have the rest of society

0:36:28.120,0:36:34.790
transacting with only a few Satoshi's

0:36:31.900,0:36:37.640
yeah I understand the problem here would

0:36:34.790,0:36:40.400
create I mean it is inherent greed that

0:36:37.640,0:36:42.830
drives adoption primarily people have an

0:36:40.400,0:36:44.660
inherent we all have an inherent greed

0:36:42.830,0:36:47.300
I also had an inherent grieve and I got

0:36:44.660,0:36:48.920
in for that shit coin and and then it

0:36:47.300,0:36:50.540
kind of got transformed as more as I

0:36:48.920,0:36:52.370
started learning about it but I realized

0:36:50.540,0:36:54.230
that the thing that I got into is much

0:36:52.370,0:36:55.730
more deeper than I thought and the

0:36:54.230,0:37:00.260
rabbit hole just keeps going down in

0:36:55.730,0:37:03.110
sideways so it's just crazy and and this

0:37:00.260,0:37:06.860
is what the cypher diamonds talked about

0:37:03.110,0:37:09.920
in his book that to basically sound

0:37:06.860,0:37:12.950
money or I think it was incest or or or

0:37:09.920,0:37:16.100
or hi I'm not really sure who was there

0:37:12.950,0:37:20.450
but one of them said that that you know

0:37:16.100,0:37:24.590
if you have sound money and an any

0:37:20.450,0:37:28.700
amount of that thing basically able to

0:37:24.590,0:37:31.190
upkeep an economy what they basically

0:37:28.700,0:37:33.350
meant here is that if we have 21 million

0:37:31.190,0:37:36.320
bitcoins or even if you lose four

0:37:33.350,0:37:38.180
million more than 5 million 16 bitcoins

0:37:36.320,0:37:41.080
we still have enough amount of Bitcoin

0:37:38.180,0:37:44.180
in order to run the entire planets

0:37:41.080,0:37:45.860
economy that's because you know it's

0:37:44.180,0:37:49.250
kind of made me thinking because you

0:37:45.860,0:37:52.970
know there's like I mean one Bitcoin can

0:37:49.250,0:37:56.960
be broken down into into 100 100 100

0:37:52.970,0:38:02.170
billion that's a hundred million

0:37:56.960,0:38:04.160
Jimmy I'm sorry and and and basically

0:38:02.170,0:38:05.150
that's the whole point of it that you

0:38:04.160,0:38:08.510
know you can break you down to the

0:38:05.150,0:38:09.980
smallest section and basically the new

0:38:08.510,0:38:11.750
layer technologies that are coming in

0:38:09.980,0:38:13.160
right now can basically improve on it

0:38:11.750,0:38:15.950
like you know like with the Lightning

0:38:13.160,0:38:19.250
Network because even now we are

0:38:15.950,0:38:22.099
basically sending money almost three or

0:38:19.250,0:38:24.020
a fraction of a statice so it basically

0:38:22.099,0:38:26.270
means that but if we you know start

0:38:24.020,0:38:28.730
having really big issues with the with

0:38:26.270,0:38:30.260
the value new systems yeah I'm not

0:38:28.730,0:38:32.089
saying that that you know I can

0:38:30.260,0:38:34.309
eliminate the chance for any new system

0:38:32.089,0:38:36.589
to come in because you know we can

0:38:34.309,0:38:38.119
always have total consensus on something

0:38:36.589,0:38:40.760
more important it's something actually

0:38:38.119,0:38:42.650
perks that people agree on and then and

0:38:40.760,0:38:44.780
then the algorithm in majority would

0:38:42.650,0:38:47.210
agree on it and I say that could get

0:38:44.780,0:38:48.950
accepted and those changes I'm a Bitcoin

0:38:47.210,0:38:52.099
because it's an open open source

0:38:48.950,0:38:54.440
software but even though if it cannot be

0:38:52.099,0:38:56.300
changing and it is really rigid in order

0:38:54.440,0:38:58.970
to you know keep its its functionalities

0:38:56.300,0:39:00.829
as it is right now new technologists you

0:38:58.970,0:39:02.510
know could get billed onto that our

0:39:00.829,0:39:05.089
permission that's like like a network

0:39:02.510,0:39:07.220
could try developing into that you know

0:39:05.089,0:39:09.410
we'd kind of you know allow people to

0:39:07.220,0:39:12.109
break down the value also even even

0:39:09.410,0:39:14.260
lower so then the basic allows people to

0:39:12.109,0:39:16.490
you know have the smallest amount

0:39:14.260,0:39:18.079
available if you are just buying

0:39:16.490,0:39:20.299
sometimes like a like a bread or

0:39:18.079,0:39:23.180
something far away lands or something

0:39:20.299,0:39:24.349
which is quite interesting so this kind

0:39:23.180,0:39:26.089
of allows people to you know just use

0:39:24.349,0:39:28.910
one monetary system this is why you know

0:39:26.089,0:39:32.530
it kind of becomes pointless to buy each

0:39:28.910,0:39:35.630
day or any other shit coin basically

0:39:32.530,0:39:39.410
usually I think my defense of shit coins

0:39:35.630,0:39:41.630
is that they attract newbies and in the

0:39:39.410,0:39:43.849
instance is when they don't give Bitcoin

0:39:41.630,0:39:46.460
a bad name and make the wrong impression

0:39:43.849,0:39:50.240
of what it is they actually educate in

0:39:46.460,0:39:53.180
terms of how to use the wallet and how

0:39:50.240,0:39:55.430
to make one transaction and what happens

0:39:53.180,0:39:58.280
if you lose your keys and this happens

0:39:55.430,0:40:00.920
without affecting what's going on with

0:39:58.280,0:40:03.710
Bitcoin and by the time they wake up and

0:40:00.920,0:40:05.690
realize hey there's a major player in

0:40:03.710,0:40:07.730
this feel and there's old Bitcoin not

0:40:05.690,0:40:09.560
this other shit coin that I was into

0:40:07.730,0:40:12.740
there are more

0:40:09.560,0:40:17.620
to not lose their keys and to secure

0:40:12.740,0:40:20.210
their keys and also to use wallets and

0:40:17.620,0:40:22.540
possibly they also know how to read a

0:40:20.210,0:40:22.540
note

0:40:23.020,0:40:26.870
yeah people learn about this thing

0:40:25.430,0:40:30.010
that's definitely true

0:40:26.870,0:40:32.660
I did learn a lot also true this way and

0:40:30.010,0:40:36.080
anything it can be a good gateway drug

0:40:32.660,0:40:37.730
of course I will agree with that but in

0:40:36.080,0:40:40.520
the end it kind of depends on the person

0:40:37.730,0:40:42.680
if he goes beyond his own selfish greed

0:40:40.520,0:40:44.240
to learn more about it and that's kind

0:40:42.680,0:40:46.910
of what kind of makes or breaks the

0:40:44.240,0:40:48.230
whole thing for him it kind of makes it

0:40:46.910,0:40:50.750
more like you know if he's gonna lose

0:40:48.230,0:40:52.160
millions on this at some point in his

0:40:50.750,0:40:53.780
life or if it's gonna be you know

0:40:52.160,0:40:57.530
survive the next hyperinflationary

0:40:53.780,0:41:01.130
crisis that we're gonna face and this is

0:40:57.530,0:41:05.150
interesting but I don't really think but

0:41:01.130,0:41:07.190
maybe maybe I do but it's it's a like

0:41:05.150,0:41:09.530
you know it's hard for the average Joe

0:41:07.190,0:41:11.840
to you know to get right away into the

0:41:09.530,0:41:13.640
deep water and I just jumped in if you

0:41:11.840,0:41:15.530
know if you stop if you buy Bitcoin you

0:41:13.640,0:41:17.750
never heard about it you just keep it in

0:41:15.530,0:41:19.940
an exchange and even a couple of weeks

0:41:17.750,0:41:23.060
ago I had a friend who being into crypto

0:41:19.940,0:41:26.360
is in the 2017 will run he just now

0:41:23.060,0:41:31.850
bought himself a hardware wallet to

0:41:26.360,0:41:33.320
escape those security never really

0:41:31.850,0:41:35.630
thought about these things to buy a

0:41:33.320,0:41:38.090
hardware wallet or something and he said

0:41:35.630,0:41:41.030
he's only started you know looking into

0:41:38.090,0:41:45.530
it and he needed to get to pushed you

0:41:41.030,0:41:48.140
know to get into this thing I know but

0:41:45.530,0:41:50.870
you have to realize that we are having a

0:41:48.140,0:41:53.090
very elitist perspective on it and most

0:41:50.870,0:41:56.390
people don't really have the time to do

0:41:53.090,0:41:58.370
as much research as we did so in in a

0:41:56.390,0:42:01.160
sense this is a luxury that we get to

0:41:58.370,0:42:03.500
learn about how Bitcoin functions on so

0:42:01.160,0:42:06.530
many dimensions most people will just

0:42:03.500,0:42:09.320
buy $100 worth of Bitcoin leave it on

0:42:06.530,0:42:12.470
coin base and forget about it maybe sell

0:42:09.320,0:42:19.130
it when it goes up in price and that's

0:42:12.470,0:42:20.900
about it yeah yeah and to say people are

0:42:19.130,0:42:22.840
just gonna live their lives and be

0:42:20.900,0:42:25.720
ignorant of what goes on

0:42:22.840,0:42:28.360
around them and finance and politics and

0:42:25.720,0:42:32.020
everything else but we have to make sure

0:42:28.360,0:42:34.660
as long as we are more educated that we

0:42:32.020,0:42:36.700
preserve this system and keep it fair as

0:42:34.660,0:42:41.760
opposed to trying to change the

0:42:36.700,0:42:46.390
consensus rules and stru everybody else

0:42:41.760,0:42:48.250
yeah so it's yeah people definitely have

0:42:46.390,0:42:51.790
barriers for entry like how they keep

0:42:48.250,0:42:52.780
you know the secret key safe and then

0:42:51.790,0:42:54.820
you know when they start you know

0:42:52.780,0:42:56.620
realizing there's a lot more things they

0:42:54.820,0:42:58.960
can do to keep it secure like like pass

0:42:56.620,0:43:01.630
phrases or move to signature wallets

0:42:58.960,0:43:03.130
they just get really entangled with all

0:43:01.630,0:43:04.870
the information it's just overwhelming

0:43:03.130,0:43:08.440
for them even for me in the beginning it

0:43:04.870,0:43:11.350
was really overwhelming but it is true

0:43:08.440,0:43:13.060
we are also you know have the luxury if

0:43:11.350,0:43:16.600
you know to think about this we're like

0:43:13.060,0:43:19.320
time billionaires here or we're able to

0:43:16.600,0:43:22.750
you know set aside some capacity of our

0:43:19.320,0:43:25.090
brain and time to you know think about

0:43:22.750,0:43:27.790
this thing constantly and it's kind of

0:43:25.090,0:43:29.620
gives us the advantage also so like but

0:43:27.790,0:43:30.910
you know this is why you know freedom

0:43:29.620,0:43:34.540
for somebody who's financially

0:43:30.910,0:43:38.590
struggling with of America or hungry or

0:43:34.540,0:43:40.060
whatever else they gonna have a really

0:43:38.590,0:43:41.350
hard time you know thinking about these

0:43:40.060,0:43:42.580
things because you have to worry about

0:43:41.350,0:43:44.440
everything like how they gonna earn

0:43:42.580,0:43:47.140
money how they gonna feed their children

0:43:44.440,0:43:49.600
or family or whatever else it's just you

0:43:47.140,0:43:51.970
know once you get out of the environment

0:43:49.600,0:43:53.590
you know the study or whatever if you're

0:43:51.970,0:43:56.290
not in such a situation that you're able

0:43:53.590,0:43:57.850
to think like if you're at home all the

0:43:56.290,0:44:00.190
time being depressed and you're unable

0:43:57.850,0:44:02.230
to go anywhere then baby that that can

0:44:00.190,0:44:05.290
be kind of a good time to start thinking

0:44:02.230,0:44:07.960
about these things and and usually can

0:44:05.290,0:44:10.780
alistair good good good result also what

0:44:07.960,0:44:17.110
I can see there but it's just

0:44:10.780,0:44:19.300
interesting like it's hard to know hard

0:44:17.110,0:44:21.130
to save if somebody would have the time

0:44:19.300,0:44:22.600
we need to think about this if they're

0:44:21.130,0:44:25.270
living you if they don't have anything

0:44:22.600,0:44:27.810
threatening their lives like like one of

0:44:25.270,0:44:31.150
my lecture this is how she would say it

0:44:27.810,0:44:34.210
but it's it's not possible to say if

0:44:31.150,0:44:36.559
it's true one of the discussions that I

0:44:34.210,0:44:39.259
have had on this podcast

0:44:36.559,0:44:41.689
before is that nobody really wakes up in

0:44:39.259,0:44:44.209
the morning one day and realizes that

0:44:41.689,0:44:46.489
the dollars in their pocket are not good

0:44:44.209,0:44:48.410
enough and they need sound money in

0:44:46.489,0:44:51.380
their lives oh oh this is very

0:44:48.410,0:44:53.809
interesting yes yes and actually I had

0:44:51.380,0:44:56.989
the downing of this moment without this

0:44:53.809,0:45:00.170
thing that you know how perceptive eyes

0:44:56.989,0:45:01.549
is the value of fiat currencies is I'm

0:45:00.170,0:45:03.019
not sure if you ever heard of I like

0:45:01.549,0:45:05.239
what's going on in Hungary with the

0:45:03.019,0:45:09.130
paper money basically the song game

0:45:05.239,0:45:12.229
central bank started issuing new

0:45:09.130,0:45:14.959
basically brand-new paper money so they

0:45:12.229,0:45:17.150
are look totally different and the whole

0:45:14.959,0:45:19.729
purpose of that is that that they are

0:45:17.150,0:45:23.449
still running with the old money in

0:45:19.729,0:45:25.999
place and people are trying to exit the

0:45:23.449,0:45:28.910
old money but even though the old old

0:45:25.999,0:45:31.189
type of currency is still in circulation

0:45:28.910,0:45:33.439
for indefinite time until it gets

0:45:31.189,0:45:35.359
announced and they're just trying to get

0:45:33.439,0:45:37.640
the new one because they think that it's

0:45:35.359,0:45:39.499
gonna turn useless for them and that's

0:45:37.640,0:45:41.779
funny you know when I went into the post

0:45:39.499,0:45:44.029
office and I received multiple of those

0:45:41.779,0:45:45.619
old bills and one in between them I you

0:45:44.029,0:45:47.749
know just kind of immediately got

0:45:45.619,0:45:50.449
shocked that this was actually true that

0:45:47.749,0:45:52.009
it can happen that the human perception

0:45:50.449,0:45:53.239
is enough to create a massive

0:45:52.009,0:45:56.239
hyperinflation

0:45:53.239,0:45:57.529
because there's no nothing behind the

0:45:56.239,0:45:58.869
money that's backing its value the

0:45:57.529,0:46:02.630
government just printing it out

0:45:58.869,0:46:04.339
endlessly and in the end when you know

0:46:02.630,0:46:06.170
people will start realizing that there

0:46:04.339,0:46:08.239
is nothing behind this thing absolutely

0:46:06.170,0:46:09.949
nothing to just you know they're just

0:46:08.239,0:46:11.660
gonna start demanding more and more to

0:46:09.949,0:46:13.939
buy more of bitcoin or something

0:46:11.660,0:46:16.779
different and that's gonna be the end of

0:46:13.939,0:46:19.670
it and this is scary basically because I

0:46:16.779,0:46:21.709
have a theory for that that this thing

0:46:19.670,0:46:24.439
could happen within six years now

0:46:21.709,0:46:27.019
if hyper Bitcoin ization starts

0:46:24.439,0:46:28.789
happening much more sooner than it is so

0:46:27.019,0:46:31.400
that's what I'm taking my movie could

0:46:28.789,0:46:33.769
somehow you know slow this but so this

0:46:31.400,0:46:37.099
down a tiny bit or follow the stock to

0:46:33.769,0:46:40.400
flow ratio somehow without inducing in a

0:46:37.099,0:46:42.920
- inflation effect then we would have a

0:46:40.400,0:46:46.279
much more safer transition then you know

0:46:42.920,0:46:48.619
next day having to pay like just one day

0:46:46.279,0:46:49.070
having to pay before like one euro for

0:46:48.619,0:46:51.980
bread

0:46:49.070,0:46:54.560
like a million because that would cause

0:46:51.980,0:46:56.540
a massive destruction for society on the

0:46:54.560,0:47:00.020
long run and you wouldn't get out of it

0:46:56.540,0:47:01.730
in just four or five years time only six

0:47:00.020,0:47:04.790
people have to buy life after we have to

0:47:01.730,0:47:08.780
rely on government food stamps or

0:47:04.790,0:47:13.850
whatever or food so it's quite scary in

0:47:08.780,0:47:16.210
some perspective would you say that you

0:47:13.850,0:47:19.790
have always had this predisposition to

0:47:16.210,0:47:21.680
like libertarianism and the reason you

0:47:19.790,0:47:26.270
got into Bitcoin is that you didn't like

0:47:21.680,0:47:29.330
the government's I used to be a centrist

0:47:26.270,0:47:31.460
because I twice voted for the the ruling

0:47:29.330,0:47:34.160
government but then I kind of felt like

0:47:31.460,0:47:36.620
that they betrayed my trust and then I

0:47:34.160,0:47:38.960
kinda had this descry sees that you know

0:47:36.620,0:47:42.230
I was more more left-leaning than

0:47:38.960,0:47:43.850
centrist and I you know I just didn't

0:47:42.230,0:47:45.800
feel like that these things were right

0:47:43.850,0:47:47.720
there what they were doing but at the

0:47:45.800,0:47:50.270
same time it really liked what was going

0:47:47.720,0:47:52.220
on with the migration crisis I didn't

0:47:50.270,0:47:55.090
like something that also the other side

0:47:52.220,0:47:57.830
was saying and also the parties that

0:47:55.090,0:48:00.410
basically abused their power in the past

0:47:57.830,0:48:02.510
we're still running for political

0:48:00.410,0:48:04.010
political office so they kind of

0:48:02.510,0:48:05.420
conflicted with the whole thing and I

0:48:04.010,0:48:06.980
can't end up in this whole thing that I

0:48:05.420,0:48:09.080
don't have a political party that I can

0:48:06.980,0:48:12.110
rely on I don't know how we want to

0:48:09.080,0:48:14.210
trust I mean who can I can trust and in

0:48:12.110,0:48:16.340
what ways and then I kind of realized

0:48:14.210,0:48:19.060
after you know with the whole Bitcoin

0:48:16.340,0:48:22.520
thing that this is actually love better

0:48:19.060,0:48:25.100
with attorneys and I I know I'm kind of

0:48:22.520,0:48:27.830
fully transitioning bad but it's a

0:48:25.100,0:48:29.680
really really long process there's

0:48:27.830,0:48:32.750
another guy I'm Twitter recall is

0:48:29.680,0:48:38.030
recovering status by kind of doing the

0:48:32.750,0:48:40.010
same thing right well I think I still

0:48:38.030,0:48:42.830
regard myself as a centrist when I

0:48:40.010,0:48:45.200
listen to political issues as I can

0:48:42.830,0:48:48.740
sympathize with all points of view and

0:48:45.200,0:48:51.110
understand that it's not easy to get

0:48:48.740,0:48:54.050
involved into politics and please all

0:48:51.110,0:48:56.390
all the people who essentially entrust

0:48:54.050,0:48:59.360
you with their vote but at the same time

0:48:56.390,0:49:01.950
I become much more of a naturalist in

0:48:59.360,0:49:05.579
relation to policy

0:49:01.950,0:49:08.190
and I think that sometimes it's required

0:49:05.579,0:49:10.200
in a democracy to have a shake-up of the

0:49:08.190,0:49:14.550
system just so you discover what works

0:49:10.200,0:49:16.200
and what doesn't yeah I mean there was

0:49:14.550,0:49:18.390
this guy called Zach who was also

0:49:16.200,0:49:21.480
talking about this in relation to Donald

0:49:18.390,0:49:23.790
Trump he was either I think it was

0:49:21.480,0:49:25.740
Slovenian philosopher a Marxist

0:49:23.790,0:49:27.780
philosopher it was basically saying that

0:49:25.740,0:49:29.849
the thing that's this thing with Donald

0:49:27.780,0:49:31.470
Trump is a really great thing but he

0:49:29.849,0:49:33.839
happened because he now gonna destroy

0:49:31.470,0:49:35.730
everything and then you know the new

0:49:33.839,0:49:37.680
thing that comes in his place is getting

0:49:35.730,0:49:39.869
much better does that stuff thing would

0:49:37.680,0:49:41.609
I agree with Bitcoin because it's doing

0:49:39.869,0:49:43.829
the same thing what he was referring to

0:49:41.609,0:49:45.420
it's destroying everything that we see

0:49:43.829,0:49:47.280
now but it's not really destroying

0:49:45.420,0:49:49.320
everything the system that it that is

0:49:47.280,0:49:52.109
that his predecessor is destroying

0:49:49.320,0:49:55.050
itself and that's how Bitcoin have the

0:49:52.109,0:49:58.020
space to grow and it's just really great

0:49:55.050,0:50:02.670
that it is able to do that quite so

0:49:58.020,0:50:04.829
organically yeah I think bitcoin is a

0:50:02.670,0:50:08.160
very strange phenomenon that you only

0:50:04.829,0:50:12.150
find maybe once in a generation once in

0:50:08.160,0:50:15.349
a few hundreds of years it came at the

0:50:12.150,0:50:19.160
exact right time when it was needed

0:50:15.349,0:50:21.960
basically I think even now people have

0:50:19.160,0:50:24.359
struggles in terms of understanding its

0:50:21.960,0:50:28.500
purpose and how it actually works and if

0:50:24.359,0:50:30.599
you put an economist and a computer

0:50:28.500,0:50:33.240
scientist in the same room and tell them

0:50:30.599,0:50:35.700
to interpret the purpose of Bitcoin

0:50:33.240,0:50:38.160
they're going to see something very

0:50:35.700,0:50:44.910
different which I guess is part of the

0:50:38.160,0:50:47.819
charm of the phenomenon it has all the

0:50:44.910,0:50:50.910
qualities that we need at this point in

0:50:47.819,0:50:53.010
order to basically rebel against our

0:50:50.910,0:50:55.200
governments we we tell them very

0:50:53.010,0:50:57.119
directly that we're not going to use

0:50:55.200,0:50:59.970
their money anymore we're not going to

0:50:57.119,0:51:02.150
store value with them we're not going

0:50:59.970,0:51:06.030
exact all the time with whatever

0:51:02.150,0:51:08.819
inflated currency they give us and at

0:51:06.030,0:51:11.010
some point I don't think either Bitcoin

0:51:08.819,0:51:14.540
or the fiat currencies are going to go

0:51:11.010,0:51:15.770
away but we are going to be put into a

0:51:14.540,0:51:17.240
situation

0:51:15.770,0:51:21.910
the government's come to us and

0:51:17.240,0:51:26.900
negotiate and oh yeah desperate let's

0:51:21.910,0:51:29.180
give back to us in order to win honest

0:51:26.900,0:51:32.420
citizens who contribute to the society

0:51:29.180,0:51:34.610
as they expect and in exchange for this

0:51:32.420,0:51:36.410
they're going to have much they they're

0:51:34.610,0:51:40.310
going to become much more transparent

0:51:36.410,0:51:44.270
and much more honest and I guess this

0:51:40.310,0:51:46.880
empowers us to not rely on the old

0:51:44.270,0:51:48.380
system of elites and I'm not sure to

0:51:46.880,0:51:51.230
which extent the old elites are

0:51:48.380,0:51:54.080
investing into Bitcoin that's always

0:51:51.230,0:51:54.800
something obscure and it's part of the

0:51:54.080,0:51:57.860
s3

0:51:54.800,0:52:01.460
I mean Bitcoin does punish the greedy

0:51:57.860,0:52:04.490
that that's effect so there is a value

0:52:01.460,0:52:06.560
transition from the rich to the middle

0:52:04.490,0:52:08.240
and lower classes which is a really good

0:52:06.560,0:52:10.490
thing and this is the whole thing with

0:52:08.240,0:52:11.960
volunteerism that you know that thou

0:52:10.490,0:52:14.510
government's gonna have to start

0:52:11.960,0:52:16.370
focusing more on being for-profit that

0:52:14.510,0:52:18.560
they somehow need to make money but

0:52:16.370,0:52:20.180
still allowing others to make money

0:52:18.560,0:52:22.340
because the transformational value is

0:52:20.180,0:52:24.650
already happening right now and because

0:52:22.340,0:52:27.080
now people know that how they can you

0:52:24.650,0:52:29.090
know avoid inflation they are a much

0:52:27.080,0:52:30.710
more reluctant to fund such government

0:52:29.090,0:52:33.650
projects that are not useful for them

0:52:30.710,0:52:38.110
you know humans always look for for

0:52:33.650,0:52:40.550
useful tools like the maximum utility

0:52:38.110,0:52:42.440
creatures basically who seek maximum

0:52:40.550,0:52:44.390
utility in things and then you know

0:52:42.440,0:52:46.340
governments custodian programs for

0:52:44.390,0:52:48.470
example like investment approaches for

0:52:46.340,0:52:51.050
example T people want invest through the

0:52:48.470,0:52:53.150
hospitals or other services for example

0:52:51.050,0:52:54.410
they could basically invest in sit in

0:52:53.150,0:52:56.960
and earn back the money that they

0:52:54.410,0:52:59.660
invested probably over time and then you

0:52:56.960,0:53:01.280
know this kind of you know makes the

0:52:59.660,0:53:04.070
whole system better because now we don't

0:53:01.280,0:53:07.160
have to rely on the ultra rich or

0:53:04.070,0:53:09.650
oligarchies to you know run projects or

0:53:07.160,0:53:12.380
build things and this and that and this

0:53:09.650,0:53:14.300
is really great and now you know with

0:53:12.380,0:53:15.680
the whole crypto space and with Bitcoin

0:53:14.300,0:53:18.440
people now learning about how do you

0:53:15.680,0:53:20.120
have a digital trading working and how

0:53:18.440,0:53:21.710
stocks are working how cryptocurrencies

0:53:20.120,0:53:23.630
working in things like that they're

0:53:21.710,0:53:25.400
learning more about you know how the

0:53:23.630,0:53:27.570
whole trade thing is working because up

0:53:25.400,0:53:30.210
until 2017 I never

0:53:27.570,0:53:32.160
you know anything about how effective no

0:53:30.210,0:53:32.610
works or ever size signal what the hell

0:53:32.160,0:53:35.010
that is

0:53:32.610,0:53:36.480
and and I totally learned these things

0:53:35.010,0:53:38.520
that I thought you know exploring these

0:53:36.480,0:53:41.880
things also so this is quite phenomenal

0:53:38.520,0:53:43.740
that now those people who weren't in in

0:53:41.880,0:53:46.920
this space now learning about all these

0:53:43.740,0:53:50.370
kinds of things and and if we try to you

0:53:46.920,0:53:52.590
know relate it to the future or you make

0:53:50.370,0:53:55.370
a prediction we can see that maybe we

0:53:52.590,0:53:57.930
can I have a much more greater

0:53:55.370,0:54:01.670
technological development or or economic

0:53:57.930,0:54:01.670
boom in the future because of this I

0:54:01.700,0:54:07.710
think given that you've mentioned that

0:54:04.440,0:54:10.890
you have or you used to have at least

0:54:07.710,0:54:13.290
more leftist tendencies you've reminded

0:54:10.890,0:54:15.510
me of us saying according to which the

0:54:13.290,0:54:20.640
more you'll the more economy you learn

0:54:15.510,0:54:23.000
the less of a leftist you become you

0:54:20.640,0:54:27.870
acquired the means to boat

0:54:23.000,0:54:30.540
make yourself richer and help others so

0:54:27.870,0:54:33.900
you you no longer think that the state

0:54:30.540,0:54:36.480
should intervene and over tax and punish

0:54:33.900,0:54:40.350
the rich you're basically thinking in

0:54:36.480,0:54:44.030
terms of redistributing the wealth which

0:54:40.350,0:54:46.680
means that are within your grasp

0:54:44.030,0:54:50.250
basically but there is a problem here

0:54:46.680,0:54:51.990
but you need to also consider the

0:54:50.250,0:54:54.480
problem here is that you know is it is

0:54:51.990,0:54:57.780
our inherent culture and our experiences

0:54:54.480,0:55:00.330
with our reality because for example how

0:54:57.780,0:55:03.260
company structures work in France are

0:55:00.330,0:55:06.180
really dictated by the state people more

0:55:03.260,0:55:08.400
more eager to seek your critique roles

0:55:06.180,0:55:10.800
they're like to become a governor or

0:55:08.400,0:55:13.320
something like to to become like a big

0:55:10.800,0:55:15.600
leader of company or something then they

0:55:13.320,0:55:17.610
and then you know have the social

0:55:15.600,0:55:19.980
capital to start big companies or

0:55:17.610,0:55:22.230
something it's much more over there more

0:55:19.980,0:55:24.090
in comparison to like northern Italy

0:55:22.230,0:55:25.830
where there are more companies in

0:55:24.090,0:55:29.760
comparison to southern Italy for example

0:55:25.830,0:55:31.770
bear for example religion was used as a

0:55:29.760,0:55:33.510
tool to enforce the rule of the king

0:55:31.770,0:55:35.460
so people were much more content and

0:55:33.510,0:55:37.470
they looked towards the government for

0:55:35.460,0:55:39.060
example to start companies and they're

0:55:37.470,0:55:40.470
more further than for rich people who

0:55:39.060,0:55:42.450
really think that they need to

0:55:40.470,0:55:43.890
invest into things because they consider

0:55:42.450,0:55:46.800
that that if the government stopped

0:55:43.890,0:55:47.880
invested the things not their job to

0:55:46.800,0:55:49.859
keep things going

0:55:47.880,0:55:53.369
and this is kinda it comes back down to

0:55:49.859,0:55:57.270
cultural experiences basically it's

0:55:53.369,0:56:00.090
quite interesting but Hungary has had a

0:55:57.270,0:56:03.330
very long and ugly history of what

0:56:00.090,0:56:08.150
communism yeah confiscation of wealth

0:56:03.330,0:56:10.290
and forced labor and a very strange

0:56:08.150,0:56:13.040
centralization which replaced the old

0:56:10.290,0:56:15.590
system of elites and replaced it with

0:56:13.040,0:56:18.180
maybe what what they were calling

0:56:15.590,0:56:20.640
working-class people who were uneducated

0:56:18.180,0:56:24.060
and unprepared to actually be in

0:56:20.640,0:56:29.010
government yeah this is a big problem

0:56:24.060,0:56:32.250
because it kinda you know transform

0:56:29.010,0:56:34.619
people's thinking and even today we see

0:56:32.250,0:56:38.040
the fallout of it those who are still

0:56:34.619,0:56:40.560
here are are kind of impeding on this

0:56:38.040,0:56:44.250
problem I mean in feeding on all rights

0:56:40.560,0:56:46.260
and freedoms and they just kind of

0:56:44.250,0:56:48.150
bogging down the system basically and

0:56:46.260,0:56:50.580
it's a problem because it's really hard

0:56:48.150,0:56:51.960
to change their their attitudes also

0:56:50.580,0:56:54.510
present for like in Russia for example

0:56:51.960,0:56:56.820
other people don't really like the fact

0:56:54.510,0:56:58.859
that they're younger then the younger

0:56:56.820,0:57:00.330
generation speaks so freely freely

0:56:58.859,0:57:02.940
because you know what they would have

0:57:00.330,0:57:04.410
speak that freely in Soviet times they

0:57:02.940,0:57:07.320
would have been taken away after the

0:57:04.410,0:57:10.800
gulags and their life ruin and their

0:57:07.320,0:57:12.660
families but nice much more different so

0:57:10.800,0:57:14.640
we still need some time to get through

0:57:12.660,0:57:19.650
this and see it's also change in

0:57:14.640,0:57:22.339
generation but also Bitcoin as money is

0:57:19.650,0:57:25.020
a form of speech it's an expression

0:57:22.339,0:57:27.750
because where you spend your money and

0:57:25.020,0:57:30.599
with whom you're transacting is the same

0:57:27.750,0:57:33.650
as with whom you're having conversations

0:57:30.599,0:57:37.349
and what kind of topics you prefer and

0:57:33.650,0:57:39.900
the fact that we are able to communicate

0:57:37.349,0:57:42.450
with each other financially without any

0:57:39.900,0:57:47.760
kind of central party which censors us

0:57:42.450,0:57:52.830
or central party to confiscate whichever

0:57:47.760,0:57:54.500
wealth they consider to be you know

0:57:52.830,0:57:58.330
stolen or

0:57:54.500,0:58:01.940
not being sent according to the rules

0:57:58.330,0:58:03.830
well we're not in that system anymore

0:58:01.940,0:58:06.619
and it's wonderful that we get to

0:58:03.830,0:58:10.609
understand money from this perspective

0:58:06.619,0:58:14.630
of fundamental human rights and yeah

0:58:10.609,0:58:16.550
beautiful privacy it is beautiful

0:58:14.630,0:58:18.770
the police can no longer take your money

0:58:16.550,0:58:20.810
out of your car in the US because now

0:58:18.770,0:58:22.490
the secret code is in your brain or on

0:58:20.810,0:58:25.670
your cell phone and they don't see the

0:58:22.490,0:58:29.300
physical cash trend is that of freedom

0:58:25.670,0:58:32.330
for us yes for them to know how much you

0:58:29.300,0:58:34.220
own and yeah also you can wonder

0:58:32.330,0:58:36.980
quarters you can run away from your

0:58:34.220,0:58:40.430
country with nothing but 12 words in

0:58:36.980,0:58:41.960
your mind or on a piece of paper I'm not

0:58:40.430,0:58:43.880
entirely sure but I'm convinced that

0:58:41.960,0:58:46.280
that if I think it was the Bitcoin

0:58:43.880,0:58:49.520
improvement protocol 39 that brought in

0:58:46.280,0:58:51.890
the the manic phases right that Kara

0:58:49.520,0:58:53.960
made is possible to you know to kind of

0:58:51.890,0:58:55.849
translate the private key if the more

0:58:53.960,0:58:58.280
memories I have memorized over it's like

0:58:55.849,0:59:00.200
12 or 24 and then the best part is that

0:58:58.280,0:59:02.930
you can also put a fast phrase on to

0:59:00.200,0:59:05.990
this so if you you can you know

0:59:02.930,0:59:08.270
decentralize your storage and you still

0:59:05.990,0:59:10.369
remember the fast phrase you are in full

0:59:08.270,0:59:12.290
control of your money nobody can steal

0:59:10.369,0:59:15.310
it not even the couple the government

0:59:12.290,0:59:18.050
not even lock and enforce beyond you and

0:59:15.310,0:59:20.210
this is scary and what some point but

0:59:18.050,0:59:22.849
it's really liberating because now your

0:59:20.210,0:59:26.810
your your your ex-husband cannot steal

0:59:22.849,0:59:30.170
your your kid your your fortunes or or

0:59:26.810,0:59:32.050
your rogue life is is not gonna be the

0:59:30.170,0:59:34.940
gold thing anymore

0:59:32.050,0:59:37.550
it's quite good this is this is really

0:59:34.940,0:59:38.900
liberating and I really like that but

0:59:37.550,0:59:40.760
then it's kind of brings up the whole

0:59:38.900,0:59:42.890
thing that now taxation is gonna be

0:59:40.760,0:59:44.900
impossible the things we have right now

0:59:42.890,0:59:46.760
is going to collapse it's gonna be

0:59:44.900,0:59:48.530
really hard to upkeep things like like

0:59:46.760,0:59:50.510
for infograph for states like like the

0:59:48.530,0:59:52.730
education system the health care system

0:59:50.510,0:59:57.770
whatever else like public services

0:59:52.730,0:59:59.540
hospitals not even security service is

0:59:57.770,1:00:01.280
gonna be properly operating in my

0:59:59.540,1:00:04.359
opinion unless we do something about it

1:00:01.280,1:00:06.880
so that's that's a true danger there

1:00:04.359,1:00:09.150
and also crime might start rising even

1:00:06.880,1:00:12.220
more than there is hype recognization

1:00:09.150,1:00:15.489
well the way I think about it from a

1:00:12.220,1:00:19.569
voluntary perspective is that we as

1:00:15.489,1:00:23.529
individuals who make money and the prior

1:00:19.569,1:00:25.690
value are more likely to give money to

1:00:23.529,1:00:29.019
something that which we agree so if

1:00:25.690,1:00:30.670
somebody showed up at our door and said

1:00:29.019,1:00:32.859
how about you give some money for the

1:00:30.670,1:00:35.890
local hospital or for the school in your

1:00:32.859,1:00:37.869
neighborhood you you understand why it's

1:00:35.890,1:00:40.599
important for it to continue operating

1:00:37.869,1:00:43.890
and you're going to give money but

1:00:40.599,1:00:46.509
taxation as a form of taking wealth

1:00:43.890,1:00:49.269
exists so they can put in place

1:00:46.509,1:00:52.720
practices and policies on which you

1:00:49.269,1:00:55.299
would not agree they yet onwards they

1:00:52.720,1:00:57.430
fun secret services they increase the

1:00:55.299,1:01:01.769
payments of politicians and their

1:00:57.430,1:01:04.599
drivers and these stadiums basically

1:01:01.769,1:01:06.279
exactly they build stadiums and they do

1:01:04.599,1:01:09.400
lots of stuff to it you would never

1:01:06.279,1:01:11.890
agree to do yeah also have you know what

1:01:09.400,1:01:14.680
to say except for when you go to vote

1:01:11.890,1:01:17.069
and even then it's not much of a choice

1:01:14.680,1:01:20.440
because you choose between predetermined

1:01:17.069,1:01:23.670
options and you don't get to vote for

1:01:20.440,1:01:26.440
somebody whom you consider to be honest

1:01:23.670,1:01:29.259
yeah like this is the point what I was

1:01:26.440,1:01:31.619
actually you know trying to explore it a

1:01:29.259,1:01:35.920
while back but you know like how

1:01:31.619,1:01:38.549
voluntary funding of institutions could

1:01:35.920,1:01:41.349
work I mean we already have a have a

1:01:38.549,1:01:43.029
some working technology with smart

1:01:41.349,1:01:44.890
contracts it just a better time to

1:01:43.029,1:01:47.920
create another layer on the Bitcoin

1:01:44.890,1:01:51.579
protocol and you know create some sort

1:01:47.920,1:01:53.619
of a safe smart contract system that

1:01:51.579,1:01:55.839
allows us for example to fund hospitals

1:01:53.619,1:01:57.789
for example in the country so people for

1:01:55.839,1:02:00.700
example want to fund a National Health

1:01:57.789,1:02:02.829
Service then basically they can just

1:02:00.700,1:02:05.170
contribute into that fund and then those

1:02:02.829,1:02:07.329
funds basically are possible to track

1:02:05.170,1:02:10.539
and see where it is going how to spent

1:02:07.329,1:02:12.579
but not very but just you know I'm sure

1:02:10.539,1:02:14.619
like it's how dangerous would be if it

1:02:12.579,1:02:16.569
will be possible to verify who paid in

1:02:14.619,1:02:18.010
what way because I thought like some

1:02:16.569,1:02:20.080
sort of a zero knowledge proof

1:02:18.010,1:02:21.580
it was in this system that are that are

1:02:20.080,1:02:23.410
not entirely ting back to the same

1:02:21.580,1:02:24.700
person but able to verify that he was

1:02:23.410,1:02:28.359
actually paying that amount of money

1:02:24.700,1:02:29.800
could be really useful so basically it's

1:02:28.359,1:02:31.000
really good because if you like if

1:02:29.800,1:02:33.130
you're not paying for example your

1:02:31.000,1:02:35.020
contributions if you get into hospital

1:02:33.130,1:02:37.300
you could be forced you know pay more

1:02:35.020,1:02:38.859
for yourself for the service there but

1:02:37.300,1:02:41.080
if you're paying your contributions you

1:02:38.859,1:02:44.280
you would be given a bigger discount for

1:02:41.080,1:02:47.290
example for foreplay for you know

1:02:44.280,1:02:49.690
foreign society and keeping up these

1:02:47.290,1:02:51.940
institutions through that boy that is

1:02:49.690,1:02:53.859
quite good in my opinion it could happen

1:02:51.940,1:02:57.430
will be a really good way to fix these

1:02:53.859,1:02:59.859
problems I imagine in the future that

1:02:57.430,1:03:01.900
the state will also do multi-sig

1:02:59.859,1:03:05.470
contracts on the Bitcoin blockchain

1:03:01.900,1:03:08.680
so they will be one part of the private

1:03:05.470,1:03:11.080
key and maybe somebody in your family

1:03:08.680,1:03:17.290
will hold let's say in a two out of

1:03:11.080,1:03:19.390
three structure another member of the

1:03:17.290,1:03:21.970
family will hold the other part and then

1:03:19.390,1:03:25.600
the government will want to hold a third

1:03:21.970,1:03:28.780
part and the money you mean like like

1:03:25.600,1:03:31.000
like a like a multi-sig that is visible

1:03:28.780,1:03:33.250
to the government like a ID system that

1:03:31.000,1:03:34.619
is type of wallet you mean yeah

1:03:33.250,1:03:40.380
something like that

1:03:34.619,1:03:43.840
so it's a really crazy idea that I think

1:03:40.380,1:03:45.730
the scanner goes against all all ideas

1:03:43.840,1:03:48.460
of freedom because then just to go I

1:03:45.730,1:03:51.070
need to get get one private keen and

1:03:48.460,1:03:55.590
universally enforce any of those or any

1:03:51.070,1:03:55.590
laws or regulations on you if you wish

1:03:56.940,1:04:04.630
yeah but I mean I'm not saying it's a

1:04:02.470,1:04:10.390
great idea I'm saying that at some point

1:04:04.630,1:04:13.119
I think they will try to do it allow you

1:04:10.390,1:04:17.470
to give them one shard of your private

1:04:13.119,1:04:20.320
key and then I guess there's nothing

1:04:17.470,1:04:23.050
that they can do without another party

1:04:20.320,1:04:25.420
who is involved so they have to persuade

1:04:23.050,1:04:28.000
or push or punish somebody else to give

1:04:25.420,1:04:31.680
up on their part of the private key in

1:04:28.000,1:04:31.680
order for them to collect funds

1:04:32.289,1:04:37.130
yeah this is an interesting thing to

1:04:35.420,1:04:40.630
than to hell what what they gonna be

1:04:37.130,1:04:43.190
doing if they cannot pursue you know

1:04:40.630,1:04:44.660
punishments they we're trying to impose

1:04:43.190,1:04:46.849
fines or something what they gonna be

1:04:44.660,1:04:48.499
preferring more are they gonna be using

1:04:46.849,1:04:51.049
sanctions or keep putting people into

1:04:48.499,1:04:57.229
jail or something it often we sure

1:04:51.049,1:04:59.509
that's what's more probable here I was

1:04:57.229,1:05:02.869
thinking about it right now in terms of

1:04:59.509,1:05:05.479
sanctions yeah like for example like you

1:05:02.869,1:05:07.099
just think in terms like how the Chinese

1:05:05.479,1:05:10.400
are running this social credit system

1:05:07.099,1:05:12.680
which is a massive bullshit that they

1:05:10.400,1:05:14.719
like if you do something wrong move over

1:05:12.680,1:05:17.150
their social good but then you cannot

1:05:14.719,1:05:19.999
use the buses or the trains anyway you

1:05:17.150,1:05:21.950
got leave the city you have to go on TV

1:05:19.999,1:05:23.989
use a taxi or buy things in the shops

1:05:21.950,1:05:28.880
and then you need to start working for a

1:05:23.989,1:05:30.859
better hire so just crazy but something

1:05:28.880,1:05:33.890
like this could happen in case of crimes

1:05:30.859,1:05:35.509
like like really bad crimes that that

1:05:33.890,1:05:37.519
this could be applied but not on two

1:05:35.509,1:05:39.589
people like people's freedom shouldn't

1:05:37.519,1:05:41.119
be impeded like this but more like

1:05:39.589,1:05:42.289
people who really did some sort of a

1:05:41.119,1:05:44.869
crime like for example those who

1:05:42.289,1:05:47.630
basically collapsed the financial system

1:05:44.869,1:05:49.910
in 2008 there's never been section

1:05:47.630,1:05:53.449
before only one guy was with sentence

1:05:49.910,1:05:55.729
and everybody else got up the stuff on

1:05:53.449,1:05:59.479
the wrist so that's quite quite an

1:05:55.729,1:06:02.299
injustice there it is and to this day

1:05:59.479,1:06:08.150
it's not like we have had a solution or

1:06:02.299,1:06:10.309
any kind of sensor they all resolution

1:06:08.150,1:06:12.829
for the problem it's not like we feel

1:06:10.309,1:06:15.259
like we have had our part of revenge on

1:06:12.829,1:06:19.279
the bankers who basically screwed our

1:06:15.259,1:06:22.819
lives and our generation is basically

1:06:19.279,1:06:25.789
educated on the foundation of that

1:06:22.819,1:06:28.400
financial crisis we saw how our parents

1:06:25.789,1:06:31.549
were getting poorer how some of our

1:06:28.400,1:06:33.440
parents were losing jobs we were seeing

1:06:31.549,1:06:35.359
people talk about the financial crisis

1:06:33.440,1:06:38.209
all the time it was hard for us

1:06:35.359,1:06:41.059
especially as Central and Eastern

1:06:38.209,1:06:44.539
Europeans to understand what happened on

1:06:41.059,1:06:45.380
the other side of the Atlantic and the

1:06:44.539,1:06:46.970
next financial

1:06:45.380,1:06:50.810
crisis is going to be much more

1:06:46.970,1:06:53.900
devastating because more than 50% of the

1:06:50.810,1:06:56.300
world's capital markets are in the

1:06:53.900,1:06:58.700
United States and companies like Apple

1:06:56.300,1:07:01.580
Microsoft Google they own most of the

1:06:58.700,1:07:05.200
stock market capital so if their stock

1:07:01.580,1:07:07.730
market collapses were screwed Lobley

1:07:05.200,1:07:10.370
completely yeah it's a big problem

1:07:07.730,1:07:12.530
also since things like auto mised other

1:07:10.370,1:07:15.220
like you know like a is coming in and

1:07:12.530,1:07:18.200
autumn ization of jobs also coming in

1:07:15.220,1:07:19.280
with robotics and things so people are

1:07:18.200,1:07:22.760
going to make more people going to be

1:07:19.280,1:07:25.990
losing jobs no I think so really I don't

1:07:22.760,1:07:28.190
think so jobs will be replaced but not

1:07:25.990,1:07:30.410
you know some of them will become

1:07:28.190,1:07:31.940
obsolete and replaced by robots but

1:07:30.410,1:07:34.160
you're going to need more people to

1:07:31.940,1:07:36.380
supervise how the artificial

1:07:34.160,1:07:38.950
intelligence works yeah that's what I

1:07:36.380,1:07:41.570
was trying to get it or Devon I have to

1:07:38.950,1:07:42.980
retrain those who will lose to Charles

1:07:41.570,1:07:46.220
because you know without that you won't

1:07:42.980,1:07:48.230
be able to have this functional but then

1:07:46.220,1:07:50.540
there's those there's those just a small

1:07:48.230,1:07:52.250
amount of people also who having a

1:07:50.540,1:07:55.280
really hard time you know being

1:07:52.250,1:07:59.090
retrained and these are usually from the

1:07:55.280,1:08:00.950
unskilled workers who it's really really

1:07:59.090,1:08:03.170
hard to like be purpose their jobs

1:08:00.950,1:08:04.670
because freedom for like in Germany

1:08:03.170,1:08:06.530
where there's like life contracts and

1:08:04.670,1:08:09.350
things like that they able to you know

1:08:06.530,1:08:10.790
or in Japan for example but not not

1:08:09.350,1:08:12.560
fully they're not really doing that

1:08:10.790,1:08:16.790
where you can you know we train the

1:08:12.560,1:08:18.830
workforce to do different type of roles

1:08:16.790,1:08:20.990
in the factory for example where a

1:08:18.830,1:08:23.510
company would invest rather in their

1:08:20.990,1:08:27.080
employees then then lose them who were

1:08:23.510,1:08:29.150
more you know more loyal or something so

1:08:27.080,1:08:32.030
I mean we do have the danger and I'm

1:08:29.150,1:08:34.250
probably gonna disagree with you but I

1:08:32.030,1:08:36.830
think we can do this with with the

1:08:34.250,1:08:38.330
retraining of the workforce to fix all

1:08:36.830,1:08:42.620
the problems but it's gonna be really

1:08:38.330,1:08:46.190
hard one I I think I've heard navall

1:08:42.620,1:08:49.490
ravi Khan's talk about this topic on Joe

1:08:46.190,1:08:52.400
Rogan's podcast and I read with him that

1:08:49.490,1:08:54.650
there is one kind of tasks that

1:08:52.400,1:08:57.110
artificial intelligence will never be

1:08:54.650,1:08:58.730
able to accomplish and that is the

1:08:57.110,1:09:02.000
creative parts

1:08:58.730,1:09:05.080
so you're not going to have artificial

1:09:02.000,1:09:08.600
intelligence robots and algorithms

1:09:05.080,1:09:12.560
produce music that we as humans enjoy or

1:09:08.600,1:09:15.290
poetry or any kind of artistic

1:09:12.560,1:09:17.450
expression that we can only create

1:09:15.290,1:09:20.420
because we have feelings and emotions

1:09:17.450,1:09:22.310
and different states of mind just

1:09:20.420,1:09:25.210
because we're not machines that we're

1:09:22.310,1:09:32.750
not constant in our way of operating

1:09:25.210,1:09:36.820
makes us determined and mmm I don't know

1:09:32.750,1:09:39.620
what the objective is but makes us

1:09:36.820,1:09:43.310
willing and capable of producing art and

1:09:39.620,1:09:46.070
that's something special which tells us

1:09:43.310,1:09:48.410
apart from machines and that's something

1:09:46.070,1:09:50.780
that we need as a society as a society

1:09:48.410,1:09:52.850
to function maybe that in the future

1:09:50.780,1:09:55.010
you're going to have machines which do

1:09:52.850,1:09:58.190
the hard work and we are going to write

1:09:55.010,1:10:01.490
novels we're going to write music and do

1:09:58.190,1:10:04.940
paintings and have much different

1:10:01.490,1:10:08.120
activities or do coding that's quite

1:10:04.940,1:10:10.100
good awesome I mean oh yeah that's the

1:10:08.120,1:10:11.750
problem in gonna be really necessary in

1:10:10.100,1:10:14.810
the future without that you're not gonna

1:10:11.750,1:10:16.820
be probably getting really far away I

1:10:14.810,1:10:19.130
already started learning fit and also

1:10:16.820,1:10:21.220
which is pretty good frelling language

1:10:19.130,1:10:22.460
what everybody hates it from my friends

1:10:21.220,1:10:25.040
peyten

1:10:22.460,1:10:27.950
yeah fighting everybody all of my

1:10:25.040,1:10:30.850
friends probably just an ally are doing

1:10:27.950,1:10:34.010
something stupid but I think it's

1:10:30.850,1:10:35.420
because I mean most of the Bitcoin when

1:10:34.010,1:10:38.120
stuff is running I'm fightin on

1:10:35.420,1:10:40.220
applications I quite fascinating for me

1:10:38.120,1:10:42.040
at least let me see if I could you know

1:10:40.220,1:10:44.540
do something more useful than right now

1:10:42.040,1:10:51.530
let me see programming hey I'm really

1:10:44.540,1:10:55.330
satisfied well I guess it's more

1:10:51.530,1:10:58.490
difficult language to learn at first

1:10:55.330,1:11:00.680
usually you start with C++ or something

1:10:58.490,1:11:02.660
I remember that's what I did in my high

1:11:00.680,1:11:05.840
school days and it's interesting that I

1:11:02.660,1:11:09.200
have a high school degree in computer

1:11:05.840,1:11:12.170
science and I actually passed an exam

1:11:09.200,1:11:12.800
which gave me a certificate to work as a

1:11:12.170,1:11:14.840
computer

1:11:12.800,1:11:18.619
operator but then I went to university

1:11:14.840,1:11:23.050
and did political science and I went

1:11:18.619,1:11:24.880
from hard sciences to social sciences oh

1:11:23.050,1:11:27.559
yeah

1:11:24.880,1:11:29.480
interesting during there yeah well I

1:11:27.559,1:11:34.239
guess I wasn't very good at it I'm not

1:11:29.480,1:11:37.579
good at math and I wasn't being very

1:11:34.239,1:11:40.040
efficient at creating code so in mind

1:11:37.579,1:11:42.800
you made me create some kind of

1:11:40.040,1:11:46.340
instruction I would think it in terms of

1:11:42.800,1:11:48.590
repeating lines of code whereas others

1:11:46.340,1:11:51.530
would find something like a loop to

1:11:48.590,1:11:54.020
generate the whole sequence which

1:11:51.530,1:11:57.139
escaped my mind I wasn't capable of

1:11:54.020,1:11:59.840
conceiving so I I'm not an efficient

1:11:57.139,1:12:02.540
coder or maybe if I try it again I would

1:11:59.840,1:12:05.030
become one I don't know but I know that

1:12:02.540,1:12:08.719
I'm much better in expressing words than

1:12:05.030,1:12:11.449
in writing code and I don't know maybe

1:12:08.719,1:12:16.880
there is room for everybody in this

1:12:11.449,1:12:19.699
world to work and be as good as they can

1:12:16.880,1:12:20.780
be at something more than likely just

1:12:19.699,1:12:23.030
think the criminal creative

1:12:20.780,1:12:24.650
opportunities for people that's the hard

1:12:23.030,1:12:26.480
part you know you need to have the

1:12:24.650,1:12:28.130
capital and then be able to pay them and

1:12:26.480,1:12:31.250
produce something that that kind of

1:12:28.130,1:12:33.940
sustainable in the long run just gets

1:12:31.250,1:12:33.940
more hard all the time

1:12:34.239,1:12:40.790
yeah but coming back to Bitcoin do you

1:12:38.630,1:12:43.520
see anything changing in the future in

1:12:40.790,1:12:45.739
Hungary in regards to it and maybe if

1:12:43.520,1:12:49.480
your government decided to ban it

1:12:45.739,1:12:54.559
completely and do it like in India where

1:12:49.480,1:12:58.090
they say would you be willing to leave

1:12:54.559,1:13:00.949
the country because of that yes I

1:12:58.090,1:13:05.150
wouldn't I already worked out a plan for

1:13:00.949,1:13:06.530
this because I do consider that tongue

1:13:05.150,1:13:09.440
is going to be among the first countries

1:13:06.530,1:13:12.290
to to ban crypto currencies after

1:13:09.440,1:13:14.570
probably after it reaches like two

1:13:12.290,1:13:16.369
hundred fifty thousand dollars so or or

1:13:14.570,1:13:18.469
a million dollars I'm not really sure

1:13:16.369,1:13:22.000
when but it's highly likely they even

1:13:18.469,1:13:22.000
happen within seven years so

1:13:22.250,1:13:26.390
I think this is a danger for people

1:13:24.230,1:13:28.760
getting into it but I can also see that

1:13:26.390,1:13:31.490
that that the next wave adduction will

1:13:28.760,1:13:33.590
probably create will bring up the amount

1:13:31.490,1:13:35.750
of cryptocurrency Bitcoin user still

1:13:33.590,1:13:37.910
number of like 1 million or over a

1:13:35.750,1:13:39.950
million people in Hungary will be

1:13:37.910,1:13:42.170
actively using it and trading it and

1:13:39.950,1:13:43.880
buying stuff with it and and the

1:13:42.170,1:13:45.520
government will definitely notice this

1:13:43.880,1:13:49.550
because right now there's only about

1:13:45.520,1:13:51.110
140,000 people probably hiding because I

1:13:49.550,1:13:53.180
had this really interesting story I had

1:13:51.110,1:13:56.150
once I was coming home from from from

1:13:53.180,1:14:00.430
from be the best and I was in the

1:13:56.150,1:14:04.520
intercity and we are under lumen and

1:14:00.430,1:14:06.020
basically we said I was I was talking

1:14:04.520,1:14:07.730
with the woman because just an issue we

1:14:06.020,1:14:11.150
didn't understand how the train is going

1:14:07.730,1:14:12.410
these days but that attack kind of told

1:14:11.150,1:14:14.630
her and then I started talking to her

1:14:12.410,1:14:18.050
about Bitcoin and then when I got to the

1:14:14.630,1:14:19.730
part about you know how what kind of

1:14:18.050,1:14:22.420
generations are using me like you know

1:14:19.730,1:14:25.340
the younger generations or 20s

1:14:22.420,1:14:28.220
24:28 or using these things the guy

1:14:25.340,1:14:33.530
sitting in the in the cabin on the other

1:14:28.220,1:14:35.660
side who was around 65 seconds it was 65

1:14:33.530,1:14:38.690
actually but he's 65 years old and in

1:14:35.660,1:14:40.460
2007 he was like 10 bitcoins and then

1:14:38.690,1:14:47.390
the whole theory of mine kind of

1:14:40.460,1:14:48.770
collapsed because it was 65 years old so

1:14:47.390,1:14:50.390
it's very interesting so there must be

1:14:48.770,1:14:52.550
like a lot of people in Hungary also

1:14:50.390,1:14:54.250
with Bitcoin and we don't really know

1:14:52.550,1:14:58.480
about these people

1:14:54.250,1:15:00.650
it's interesting I have a theory that

1:14:58.480,1:15:03.380
there are a lot of people who get into

1:15:00.650,1:15:05.840
Bitcoin because they need it not because

1:15:03.380,1:15:07.670
they want to speculate financially but

1:15:05.840,1:15:10.760
because they want to store their value

1:15:07.670,1:15:14.180
in a way that cannot be inflated and

1:15:10.760,1:15:17.320
devalued by their governments oh yeah oh

1:15:14.180,1:15:21.530
yeah I existed all the hungry for inside

1:15:17.320,1:15:24.760
actually so I'm not saying I don't own

1:15:21.530,1:15:28.190
that much I don't consider myself like

1:15:24.760,1:15:30.710
anything near that but since I'm saving

1:15:28.190,1:15:32.390
the lower middle class but I just you

1:15:30.710,1:15:34.910
know was thinking more like in like

1:15:32.390,1:15:35.370
being able to avoid a hyperinflation it

1:15:34.910,1:15:37.800
actually

1:15:35.370,1:15:40.520
Athens so for me it was like logical to

1:15:37.800,1:15:44.040
keep things in between three and four so

1:15:40.520,1:15:46.470
it's quite good in that sense to you

1:15:44.040,1:15:48.570
know to be safe because you know people

1:15:46.470,1:15:50.220
who don't really think about these

1:15:48.570,1:15:54.480
things they're gonna be you know running

1:15:50.220,1:15:56.340
out of options and even last November

1:15:54.480,1:15:59.310
when the price you know crashed like

1:15:56.340,1:16:01.470
3000 like two thousand eight hundred

1:15:59.310,1:16:03.900
euros basically that's what I was

1:16:01.470,1:16:05.670
considering as the last option to for

1:16:03.900,1:16:09.360
people to you know to gain like a whole

1:16:05.670,1:16:10.890
Bitcoin because before this I I'm just

1:16:09.360,1:16:12.840
kinda like thinking here and a lot of

1:16:10.890,1:16:14.610
people bought it quite at a time on

1:16:12.840,1:16:16.260
credit and that's how you know credit

1:16:14.610,1:16:21.090
started burrowing into Bitcoin again

1:16:16.260,1:16:23.310
it's quite interesting yeah but usually

1:16:21.090,1:16:26.940
that's not how it works if you talk

1:16:23.310,1:16:29.430
about the masses and the people who get

1:16:26.940,1:16:33.480
excited in order to speculate on the

1:16:29.430,1:16:37.580
price the FOMO only happens when the

1:16:33.480,1:16:41.310
press coverage starts to emerge and

1:16:37.580,1:16:43.770
20,000 yeah yeah unless they're going to

1:16:41.310,1:16:47.580
publish news articles on every newspaper

1:16:43.770,1:16:49.560
and usually for the people who have been

1:16:47.580,1:16:55.260
around for a long time that that's a

1:16:49.560,1:16:58.320
sell signal yeah that's interesting you

1:16:55.260,1:17:00.030
know I like my seasonal friends they are

1:16:58.320,1:17:01.830
very interesting they actually come out

1:17:00.030,1:17:03.360
all the time when when things start

1:17:01.830,1:17:06.030
getting better and when things started

1:17:03.360,1:17:07.100
going up that this is exactly everything

1:17:06.030,1:17:11.190
like that right now

1:17:07.100,1:17:14.280
they just I I do think that a lot of

1:17:11.190,1:17:18.980
people knows about Bitcoin because I was

1:17:14.280,1:17:22.410
in Croatia on Zika music on one and and

1:17:18.980,1:17:24.030
basically asked all the waitresses who I

1:17:22.410,1:17:26.640
was interacting and if they heard about

1:17:24.030,1:17:30.150
Bitcoin all of them heard about it this

1:17:26.640,1:17:33.180
was really crazy and I don't know if

1:17:30.150,1:17:35.490
that is a good research effort for

1:17:33.180,1:17:37.560
making a such an assumption but implying

1:17:35.490,1:17:39.930
that most people able to speak English I

1:17:37.560,1:17:43.950
mean not not a lot of people because I

1:17:39.930,1:17:45.660
see somebody who cannot but basically

1:17:43.950,1:17:47.190
I'm thinking they're implying here

1:17:45.660,1:17:48.619
instead that they probably heard about

1:17:47.190,1:17:51.230
it in some form or

1:17:48.619,1:17:53.920
and and they've been exposed to the news

1:17:51.230,1:17:57.949
about it so this was very interesting

1:17:53.920,1:18:01.429
yeah Croatia I guess is a very educated

1:17:57.949,1:18:06.020
and wealthy country with very nice views

1:18:01.429,1:18:12.560
and beaches and always a really nice at

1:18:06.020,1:18:15.020
the paradise but on terms they're not

1:18:12.560,1:18:16.849
any better off economically maybe they

1:18:15.020,1:18:19.520
have really great tourism they are going

1:18:16.849,1:18:20.929
on but I wouldn't consider them much

1:18:19.520,1:18:25.250
more better off than what's out there

1:18:20.929,1:18:26.900
Hungary is they probably have more more

1:18:25.250,1:18:29.510
trade going on because they have more

1:18:26.900,1:18:31.280
access to ports and such but in some

1:18:29.510,1:18:33.139
sense if you look at for example the

1:18:31.280,1:18:34.880
minimum wage in Croatia you can only see

1:18:33.139,1:18:37.730
the freezer for like like they have only

1:18:34.880,1:18:41.090
have 100 euro more in average wage in

1:18:37.730,1:18:47.030
Kuna for example then then further what

1:18:41.090,1:18:49.520
Hungarians get so that's usually yes peg

1:18:47.030,1:18:52.670
which I have learned from the experience

1:18:49.520,1:18:54.800
of being a Romanian is that the wealth

1:18:52.670,1:18:57.980
of a country is not determined by the

1:18:54.800,1:19:00.940
resources or by the amounts of trade but

1:18:57.980,1:19:06.110
also by the geopolitical positioning

1:19:00.940,1:19:08.090
yeah we are very close to Russia and we

1:19:06.110,1:19:10.840
have a long history of being and

1:19:08.090,1:19:16.310
diplomatic tensions with the Russians

1:19:10.840,1:19:18.230
and we are you know if they wanted to

1:19:16.310,1:19:21.860
conquer us they could do it maybe in

1:19:18.230,1:19:24.500
five or six hours and there don't be

1:19:21.860,1:19:26.989
much of an effort for them and in order

1:19:24.500,1:19:29.210
for us to preserve our national security

1:19:26.989,1:19:32.179
we have to become allies with the United

1:19:29.210,1:19:34.340
States and the United States is going to

1:19:32.179,1:19:37.159
want us to give them lots of resources

1:19:34.340,1:19:39.650
and access to a lot of stuff and the law

1:19:37.159,1:19:46.460
companies to enter our country and have

1:19:39.650,1:19:50.619
special tax facilities so we are going

1:19:46.460,1:19:54.469
to be impoverished by our search for

1:19:50.619,1:19:57.770
national security and independence of as

1:19:54.469,1:19:59.690
a country even though we have we have

1:19:57.770,1:20:05.150
gold mines we have

1:19:59.690,1:20:07.070
very very rich woods which Canadian and

1:20:05.150,1:20:10.250
American companies are cutting down

1:20:07.070,1:20:13.190
these days and it just makes you wonder

1:20:10.250,1:20:16.910
it makes you think okay we pay a very

1:20:13.190,1:20:19.910
high price for our security and for our

1:20:16.910,1:20:23.480
are we yeah are we being exploited for

1:20:19.910,1:20:25.550
it or not or if the secures insecurity

1:20:23.480,1:20:27.560
in this alliance is worth more than

1:20:25.550,1:20:30.560
having a threat of a Russian invasion

1:20:27.560,1:20:33.230
like what happened to Ukraine or or

1:20:30.560,1:20:35.900
Georgia this is a very good question

1:20:33.230,1:20:38.930
because neither Georgia nor Ukraine had

1:20:35.900,1:20:41.360
the protections of the NATO and look

1:20:38.930,1:20:43.370
what happened to them it's quite

1:20:41.360,1:20:45.620
interesting yeah and like how countries

1:20:43.370,1:20:47.930
I'm being abuse prison in Africa by by

1:20:45.620,1:20:50.300
China and Chinese companies moving to

1:20:47.930,1:20:52.730
into South Africa or other countries and

1:20:50.300,1:20:56.650
then instead of hiring local and plus

1:20:52.730,1:21:00.080
employees they bring Chinese workers

1:20:56.650,1:21:02.960
that's very common also when the United

1:21:00.080,1:21:05.780
States sends humanitarian aid to other

1:21:02.960,1:21:08.210
countries they use American ships they

1:21:05.780,1:21:10.700
buy products from American companies and

1:21:08.210,1:21:12.830
they make sure that the money pours back

1:21:10.700,1:21:16.670
into their economy one way or the other

1:21:12.830,1:21:19.130
so it's a protectionist measure which

1:21:16.670,1:21:21.980
supports your economy and that makes a

1:21:19.130,1:21:24.080
lot of sense but anyway one last point

1:21:21.980,1:21:26.570
that I want to make in this podcast that

1:21:24.080,1:21:30.740
we're doing is that sometimes I think

1:21:26.570,1:21:34.130
that Bitcoin undermines the power of the

1:21:30.740,1:21:37.700
United States in the world and it makes

1:21:34.130,1:21:40.400
me wonder sometimes I say to myself am I

1:21:37.700,1:21:45.500
really helping Russia or China rise to

1:21:40.400,1:21:50.050
power because obviously bitcoin is not a

1:21:45.500,1:21:53.810
mean which helps the American government

1:21:50.050,1:21:55.250
it definitely undermines everything but

1:21:53.810,1:21:56.390
at the same time it's not good for

1:21:55.250,1:21:58.600
everybody else

1:21:56.390,1:22:01.010
I do have theories like how

1:21:58.600,1:22:04.490
dictatorships could operate under a

1:22:01.010,1:22:06.800
Bitcoin system but one interesting thing

1:22:04.490,1:22:09.469
that one of my friends basically had is

1:22:06.800,1:22:12.290
that he said that he had a theory

1:22:09.469,1:22:13.820
that the CIA created Bitcoin because he

1:22:12.290,1:22:16.070
thought that only the CIA could have

1:22:13.820,1:22:17.900
like this we've seen same capability we

1:22:16.070,1:22:19.430
used to figure out a complex system like

1:22:17.900,1:22:22.070
this and we thought that maybe they

1:22:19.430,1:22:24.890
wanted to use it to to undermine a

1:22:22.070,1:22:27.020
country somehow and then this kind of

1:22:24.890,1:22:28.400
went loose and they couldn't control it

1:22:27.020,1:22:31.969
anymore

1:22:28.400,1:22:34.880
it's just quite crazy I don't know I

1:22:31.969,1:22:38.900
don't think so that this is the case but

1:22:34.880,1:22:40.580
it could I don't know it's it's more

1:22:38.900,1:22:42.350
than likely that sort of shifting their

1:22:40.580,1:22:44.960
server and you loose with this podcast

1:22:42.350,1:22:49.250
also and he's still helping you know

1:22:44.960,1:22:50.660
develop Bitcoin I mean probably can't be

1:22:49.250,1:22:53.300
that crazy to quit it and you probably

1:22:50.660,1:22:57.080
be too addicted also to to just create

1:22:53.300,1:23:02.690
it like that if you're listening by

1:22:57.080,1:23:05.239
Satoshi we love you okay so so like it

1:23:02.690,1:23:07.790
does undermine the power of the United

1:23:05.239,1:23:14.900
States as bill Sherman so like Bitcoin

1:23:07.790,1:23:16.969
show every every transaction raised

1:23:14.900,1:23:18.710
international transaction even credit

1:23:16.969,1:23:21.320
and debit card transactions sometimes

1:23:18.710,1:23:23.090
get right to the United States in the

1:23:21.320,1:23:25.940
New York said which is very interesting

1:23:23.090,1:23:27.890
like like you know like the the

1:23:25.940,1:23:31.790
international trade goes to the dollar

1:23:27.890,1:23:34.550
to buy oil and whatever else and and you

1:23:31.790,1:23:36.890
know if you give power back into the

1:23:34.550,1:23:39.580
hands of the people you remove the power

1:23:36.890,1:23:43.370
from the hands of dirty politicians in

1:23:39.580,1:23:45.020
DC and and they they won't like that

1:23:43.370,1:23:47.090
they probably gonna try to do something

1:23:45.020,1:23:49.610
against it they're gonna try probably

1:23:47.090,1:23:50.210
dilute this early totally Facebook's

1:23:49.610,1:23:52.340
libros

1:23:50.210,1:23:54.380
is a dilution right now I'm not really

1:23:52.340,1:23:56.989
sure or just Zuckerberg is you know

1:23:54.380,1:24:01.010
trying to be really really power hungry

1:23:56.989,1:24:02.390
I'm not sure but it is true but you know

1:24:01.010,1:24:04.040
when people are gonna figure out how to

1:24:02.390,1:24:06.590
use this system for properly and

1:24:04.040,1:24:07.880
correctly all-out territorial

1:24:06.590,1:24:11.860
governments gonna gonna collapse

1:24:07.880,1:24:15.860
basically this is like a vaccine against

1:24:11.860,1:24:18.140
totalitarianism as it's Telep said it

1:24:15.860,1:24:21.920
there is the preface of a Bitcoin

1:24:18.140,1:24:23.750
standard that the Bitcoin is basically

1:24:21.920,1:24:26.030
an insurance policy against an

1:24:23.750,1:24:29.390
overvalued future and this is totally

1:24:26.030,1:24:31.820
true I think we have too much more

1:24:29.390,1:24:35.690
American than United States right now

1:24:31.820,1:24:38.480
and when I say American I mean according

1:24:35.690,1:24:41.930
to the principles of Thomas Jefferson

1:24:38.480,1:24:44.390
and James Madison and their political

1:24:41.930,1:24:46.730
thoughts as founding fathers of the

1:24:44.390,1:24:48.800
United States yeah but it doesn't

1:24:46.730,1:24:52.640
explain the fact that that there are

1:24:48.800,1:24:54.590
more European notes running that that

1:24:52.640,1:24:56.840
that that there are more nodes in the

1:24:54.590,1:24:59.030
European Union and in Europe than in the

1:24:56.840,1:25:00.830
United States because I had a pair

1:24:59.030,1:25:03.080
appear said that the European adoption

1:25:00.830,1:25:06.200
process somehow eclipsed that of the

1:25:03.080,1:25:07.730
American so somehow we adopted this but

1:25:06.200,1:25:10.790
we're able to better adopt this

1:25:07.730,1:25:13.220
mentality an ideology probably then the

1:25:10.790,1:25:15.770
Americans are able to now they feel

1:25:13.220,1:25:19.960
quite wonderful and anybody but I guess

1:25:15.770,1:25:22.490
we get better education in Europe yeah

1:25:19.960,1:25:23.570
that's probably true it's mostly free

1:25:22.490,1:25:27.290
assignments

1:25:23.570,1:25:29.630
yeah I agree yes yes so you don't get

1:25:27.290,1:25:31.580
pissed on it but yes it's even my

1:25:29.630,1:25:33.920
education for example of a master

1:25:31.580,1:25:36.050
student it's completely free and I'm

1:25:33.920,1:25:37.880
basically just abusing this course to to

1:25:36.050,1:25:39.380
research Bitcoin because I know this is

1:25:37.880,1:25:40.510
so important topic that nobody's

1:25:39.380,1:25:44.210
researching it

1:25:40.510,1:25:45.770
somebody has to work on it in the end if

1:25:44.210,1:25:49.970
I won't work I mean who is going to

1:25:45.770,1:25:53.030
forego it nobody else I'm doing the same

1:25:49.970,1:25:55.730
with my PhD and my supervisor doesn't

1:25:53.030,1:25:57.850
like it and I try to sugarcoat it with

1:25:55.730,1:26:02.180
what he gives me and try to make some

1:25:57.850,1:26:03.200
stuff yeah I always get asked even

1:26:02.180,1:26:07.610
inside there

1:26:03.200,1:26:11.180
how does this get connected to my night

1:26:07.610,1:26:12.770
my course and I'm starting to think that

1:26:11.180,1:26:15.910
the time is going to come and they

1:26:12.770,1:26:18.770
figure out all this this this thing and

1:26:15.910,1:26:20.540
if book it's just gonna be very too late

1:26:18.770,1:26:22.790
by then it's just gonna be like Bitcoin

1:26:20.540,1:26:25.460
it's going through big to big and it's

1:26:22.790,1:26:27.110
aiming for the moon now and they can't

1:26:25.460,1:26:28.910
do anything they can't shut it down they

1:26:27.110,1:26:33.340
can't do anything about it and it's just

1:26:28.910,1:26:33.340
gonna happen so basically

1:26:33.730,1:26:40.490
it's crazy by the time they figure it

1:26:37.280,1:26:42.380
out I guess I will not be as interested

1:26:40.490,1:26:44.450
to write the same thesis and I will not

1:26:42.380,1:26:47.780
be having the same time and energy to

1:26:44.450,1:26:50.470
waste on it yeah but maybe somebody else

1:26:47.780,1:26:52.550
will do a better job than I ever will

1:26:50.470,1:26:54.440
probably whether you cannot Betty can

1:26:52.550,1:26:56.150
always use your work as a basis to

1:26:54.440,1:26:58.640
improve upon it which is really

1:26:56.150,1:27:00.080
important because you know if you

1:26:58.640,1:27:03.380
wouldn't write it oh I wouldn't write

1:27:00.080,1:27:05.930
this this thesis or dissertation then

1:27:03.380,1:27:07.700
then nobody the other people would have

1:27:05.930,1:27:09.650
a much harder time getting started and

1:27:07.700,1:27:11.900
having the sound basis for their own

1:27:09.650,1:27:15.380
research and that's a big problem

1:27:11.900,1:27:17.120
because you know then just we get stuck

1:27:15.380,1:27:19.130
in this whole thing and then you know

1:27:17.120,1:27:20.780
when the problems start happening people

1:27:19.130,1:27:23.150
won't have time to research the meaning

1:27:20.780,1:27:25.100
of the system or the things that wise

1:27:23.150,1:27:26.390
why it's happening and then they're

1:27:25.100,1:27:28.130
gonna have to start focusing on other

1:27:26.390,1:27:30.110
problems and they probably gonna get

1:27:28.130,1:27:32.800
diluted with the problems then then

1:27:30.110,1:27:35.780
focusing the entire system itself and

1:27:32.800,1:27:38.690
some inner meanings of it so which is

1:27:35.780,1:27:41.150
quite a danger here yeah it makes sense

1:27:38.690,1:27:43.370
and the way you know that this is part

1:27:41.150,1:27:46.010
of the early days of the phenomenon is

1:27:43.370,1:27:50.090
that when you look at research papers

1:27:46.010,1:27:52.430
written by cryptographers and developers

1:27:50.090,1:27:55.580
in the space you're going to see how the

1:27:52.430,1:27:58.340
references actually quote discussions on

1:27:55.580,1:28:00.920
the Bitcoin talk forum yeah and that's

1:27:58.340,1:28:03.860
incredible that's not academic in any

1:28:00.920,1:28:09.200
sense but it's much more educated that

1:28:03.860,1:28:11.000
than any paper in the panel yeah it's

1:28:09.200,1:28:13.310
very interesting yes this is basically

1:28:11.000,1:28:15.350
no research being done it's not even for

1:28:13.310,1:28:19.220
me for example sociological research

1:28:15.350,1:28:21.590
that's been done I can't use anything

1:28:19.220,1:28:22.790
good I need to you know look into

1:28:21.590,1:28:25.520
everything and then you know use the

1:28:22.790,1:28:28.010
fragment that I can find the breadcrumbs

1:28:25.520,1:28:32.180
that I can you puzzle together there's

1:28:28.010,1:28:34.210
an underlying basis for my work it's

1:28:32.180,1:28:38.360
quite difficult

1:28:34.210,1:28:40.640
okay so Kairos aghoris how can people

1:28:38.360,1:28:44.090
find you on twitter and maybe inquire

1:28:40.640,1:28:46.280
about your teases or talk to you as a

1:28:44.090,1:28:49.050
fellow Bitcoin Club

1:28:46.280,1:28:51.929
basically they can hit me up on the

1:28:49.050,1:28:55.530
Bitcoin slap check on telegram or hook

1:28:51.929,1:29:13.230
me up at CarGurus on Twitter so it's

1:28:55.530,1:29:15.330
it's a I kr arrow Z or ka ROC yeah

1:29:13.230,1:29:18.270
basically so they can hit me up I have

1:29:15.330,1:29:20.610
my DMS open and just feel free to

1:29:18.270,1:29:25.770
message me anybody wants asking about it

1:29:20.610,1:29:28.380
I'm quite approachable so it was really

1:29:25.770,1:29:32.820
great to talk to you in like wise hope

1:29:28.380,1:29:35.600
we'll talk again thank you very much bye

1:29:32.820,1:29:35.600
see