S4 E1: ShapeShift COO Jon on the KeepKey Hardware Wallet

Season 4 of the Bitcoin Takeover Podcast is all about hardware wallet makers and the people who break them. Therefore, the next 10 episodes will feature interviews with important figures from the field of Bitcoin security who will be talking about the best ways to maintain your financial sovereignty.

As Trezor and Coldcard have updated their devices, and new players such as Coldcard and BitBox have emerged as serious contenders, the KeepKey is the oldest hardware wallet on the market. As described in the three-part review of hardware wallets that I wrote for Bitcoin Magazine, it has multiple limitations and may not be ideal for certain applications. However, it does have advantages of its own.

ShapeShift COO Jon has agreed to do an interview in which he answers to some tough questions about the security model of the KeepKey, while also explaining the advantages of the new ShapeShift platform. Most importantly, Jon has talked about the main differences between the KeepKey and the competitors (Trezor, Ledger, Coldcard, BitBox).

The discussion also diverges towards the end, as the ShapeShift COO explains the privacy and security features of the exchange service.

Listen to the episode on iTunes and Spotify. Update: The YouTube video is now live.

For more information, read my three-part review of the five hardware wallets on Bitcoin Magazine by accessing these links: Part One, Part Two, Part Three.

Here are some of the questions to which Jon had to reply:

1. Why should bitcoiners buy a hardware wallet? In which ways is it better than cold storage methods like the paper wallet or the steel plate?

2. Why should that wallet be a KeepKey? What is special about your device, compared to the competition?

3. Can you say something that you like and something that you don’t like about your competition? (this includes Trezor, BitBox, Coldcard, and Ledger)

4. How much of the code that goes into a KeepKey is open sourced and why do your competitors often call the device a “Trezor clone”?

5. In my review, the KeepKey hardware wallet was the oldest design and lacked several features. Is a new device on the way? And if so, what kind of features will it have?

6. Would you consider releasing a Bitcoin-only version of the KeepKey, to reduce the attack surface?

7. In the experience that I’ve had, the KeepKey is not as friendly with multisig setups as the Trezor Model T and the Coldcard Mk3. Are you planning to make any improvements in this regard?

8. Do you have any kind of recommendations for people who choose not to use the ShapeShift platform and go for Electrum and Wasabi?

9. Why did ShapeShift decide to also integrate the Trezor and the Ledger on their platform, thus supporting the competition?

10. What are KeepKey’s upcoming plans in the hardware wallet market?

11. The KeepKey is $29 cheaper if you sign up to the ShapeShift platform. Would you say that this is the price of users’ privacy and personal data?

Special thanks to LXMI and Bottle Pay for sponsoring this episode!

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Automated Transcript (Great for SEO)

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[Music]

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you are listening to season four of the

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Bitcoin takeover podcast a 10 part

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series in which hardware wallet makers

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and breakers get interviewed before I

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introduce this episode's guests let's

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hear a few words from the show's

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sponsors Alex mi is a European public

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currency exchange

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whose name is inspired by Laxmi the

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Hindu goddess of wealth good fortune and

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prosperity it's one of the regulates in

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an illegal crypto currency exchanges on

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Alex mi you can buy bitcoins with most

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currencies and you can also do trading

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with top out coins they follow the

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natural keys not your bitcoins

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philosophy but they're integrated

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noncustodial wallet which helps you

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manage your own private keys so if

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you're into trading then you don't have

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to worry about having your crypto frozen

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by whatever political decisions since

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you're empowered to hold and move your

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coins whenever you wish it's great to

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have new players like LX mi that

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respects your financial sovereignty LX

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mi is launching in 2020 and for more

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information please check out L X M I dot

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IO

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if you're not into trading is

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recommended to move your coins to a

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hardware wallet or some other form of

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hole storage and in this episode you're

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about to find out why please keep in

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mind that this is just an ad for a

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sponsor of the shuttle it's not meant to

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serve as financial advice you're

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responsible to do your own research

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before buying anything and act according

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to your own decisions

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embrace your financial sovereignty with

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[Music]

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[Music]

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while also being simple enough for no

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corners to understand no more confusion

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and headaches sensitive she's instantly

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to anyone on a supported social network

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to get you started sending and receiving

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power user and earn even more hi there

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and welcome to season 4 of the Bitcoin

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take of her podcast

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I am glad and this season is

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specifically about the makers and the

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breakers of harbor wallets and this

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first episode is actually about the

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oldest hardware wallet the oldest major

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Hardware wallet that is still on the

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market which is the key key and my guest

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is John was the CEO of shape-shift so hi

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John

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hi there glad how you doing today I'm

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okay but before we move on with our

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conversation I just want to give a shout

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out to the two sponsors of this episode

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who are lxm I a Europe

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in exchange that's going to launch in

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2020 and battle pay which is a payment

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system that has become very popular on

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Twitter so I give them a shout out now

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let's talk about hardware wallets I was

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waiting for a confirmation awkward

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moment okay yes yes let's do it

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no my first question for you is why

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would anyone need a hardware wallet

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because usually when experts discuss

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security they're going to say oh it's so

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much better to use a paper wallet or a

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brain wallet or to write your seed words

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on some sort of metal plate why use the

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hardware well if at all yeah so well

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first off I'm not sure I agree with that

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some of advice especially about brain

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wallets I don't think anyone thinks

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brain wallets or good security in 2019

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they've shown to be very very crackable

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but aside from something like that a

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hardware wallet is a very good

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combination of security and convenience

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for the average user especially if we're

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holding any large amount of crypto you

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it gives you the ability to you know

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obviously generate your keys offline you

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can still hold the seed on a metal plate

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or on paper somewhere store it away but

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it gives you much easier access to that

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versus if you're using just a paper

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wallet any time you want to actually use

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it you're gonna have to scan it put it

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on to something online or you know deal

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with a bunch of offline

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transaction signing software or

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something very complicated for the

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average user that's not really tenable a

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hardware wallet makes that a lot easier

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to actually interact with your your

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crypto and do it in such a way that you

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don't expose your private keys during

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the process so I think hardware wallets

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offer a very very good you know degree

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of security but still operating the

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convenience of being able to actually

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use it with a paper wallet you don't

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really have that choice it's you know a

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paper wall it's really only best for

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something that you're gonna put in a

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safe and forget about for the next

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decade other than that it's not very

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usable

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okay now in regards to the keep key

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hardware wallet what is your position in

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regards to the product have you been

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part of the development team so as chief

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operations officer I have not directly

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been part of the development team I've

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certainly been involved in our

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development conversations where we're

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bringing the software that goes along

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with the keep key as well as the

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firmware updates were doing and security

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you know reviews and updates and

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vulnerabilities that come in I'm

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involved with all of that at a high

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level but I'm not down in the weeds of

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actually working on the code of this

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thing we have an engineering team that

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is mostly doing that at this point okay

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so given this experience that you have

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and the exposure why do you think that

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bitcoiners should buy the key key right

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now what is special about it as compared

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to the competition yeah the the main

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thing that's I say would be special

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nowadays is really the software

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implementation that we've just released

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we kind of made a decision that the

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hardware was you know pretty darn good

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as far as we can tell over time but what

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we really didn't like was the original

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keep key client that when we acquired

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keep key was mainly being used we said

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we've supported bet since we acquired

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keep key but we recently just back in

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July launched a new shape shift platform

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that's really become the new interface

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and software component for keep key and

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I think in combination with that it's

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really the best Hardware experience on

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the market in my opinion because I think

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that's where I haven't been as pleased

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with some other hardware wallets I like

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a lot of our other hardware wallets it's

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not to say anything about problems with

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those devices but I think the software

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has been lacking over the years and I

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think the software that we released

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you know offers a much better user

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experience for the average user okay so

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you have mentioned other hardware

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wallets and this is the territory where

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it gets very interesting because I want

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to ask you about the pros and cons that

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you can mention of every other major

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competitor like what do you face

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about the preser yeah so I think the

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treasure is a very good device for the

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most part honestly I'm big I I own a

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number of hardware wallets myself

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including Hardware waltz from the

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competition

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and I'm I think that there's a number of

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good options out there so I'm not

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sitting here thinking that you know to

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keep he's great and everything else is

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terrible that's just not really the case

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there's there's a number of good

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Hardware out there the treasure among

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them so the treasure overall I think is

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a very good device one of the cons

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compared to the geeky might just be that

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it has a much smaller screen at least

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the original device and so that doesn't

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always let you see like entire Bitcoin

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addresses which can be a little

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worrisome from a man-in-the-middle

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component but overall it's not a huge

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issue it's it's still a very good device

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I've owned I've owned a treasure pretty

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much as long as I wrote Kiki what about

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the new bit box Oh - I'm not sure if you

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were able to test it but it looks it

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takes yeah I actually I actually met the

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bit box folks I think they're based out

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of Switzerland if I remember correctly

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and I we actually went and talked with

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them in their offices last year and that

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device seems pretty interesting I can't

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say I know enough about it to say what

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the immediate downsides are major pros

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of it are but it seemed like an

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interesting approach yeah a lot of

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people talk about a key key and they

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mention I'm sorry not a key key the bit

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box and they mentioned how the first

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model got hacked and they had to

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discontinue it and come up design and do

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you think that that SEMA is very good

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and competent enough to release

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something that is worthy of users trust

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because so far it hasn't been hacked

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because it's too new yeah so I guess it

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depends I don't know enough about the

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history to I think way in as much as I'd

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like to there it depends how it was

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hacked the first time hacked can mean a

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lot of things when it comes to hardware

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wallet and that can mean something very

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very bad or it can mean something

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totally innocuous depending what that

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means if it was if it was an actual like

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remote vulnerability that's

235
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,459
the worst date you can have on a

236
00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,259
hardware wallet and that actually

237
00:11:07,459 --> 00:11:11,300
required them releasing a new device

238
00:11:09,259 --> 00:11:14,209
because the other one wasn't savable

239
00:11:11,300 --> 00:11:17,000
then that's not a good thing at the same

240
00:11:14,209 --> 00:11:18,379
time I don't know enough about their

241
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,569
team and engineers to say whether

242
00:11:18,379 --> 00:11:23,449
they're you know oh you know competent

243
00:11:20,569 --> 00:11:27,139
enough or not etc so I'm not sure I know

244
00:11:23,449 --> 00:11:28,790
enough to weigh in on that now I like to

245
00:11:27,139 --> 00:11:33,430
think that the fact that they have a

246
00:11:28,790 --> 00:11:38,300
Bitcoin core developer among them is

247
00:11:33,430 --> 00:11:40,430
just an extra layer of that you can put

248
00:11:38,300 --> 00:11:42,370
into dummy but then it's a bad idea to

249
00:11:40,430 --> 00:11:44,750
put trust in anyone in this industry

250
00:11:42,370 --> 00:11:49,009
anyway let's not talk too much about the

251
00:11:44,750 --> 00:11:51,620
bit box let's move on to maybe the most

252
00:11:49,009 --> 00:11:53,899
popular device among the finest on

253
00:11:51,620 --> 00:11:55,300
Twitter which is the cold card what do

254
00:11:53,899 --> 00:11:57,769
you think about it

255
00:11:55,300 --> 00:11:59,899
yeah the cold cards another one that's

256
00:11:57,769 --> 00:12:02,180
pretty new on the scene that I don't I

257
00:11:59,899 --> 00:12:03,980
don't know enough about to weigh in on

258
00:12:02,180 --> 00:12:07,370
you know exactly what its security

259
00:12:03,980 --> 00:12:10,339
features you know are compared to other

260
00:12:07,370 --> 00:12:12,620
wallets from what I've heard it seems

261
00:12:10,339 --> 00:12:14,930
like an interesting device but I'm not

262
00:12:12,620 --> 00:12:16,790
sure if it gives as much full features

263
00:12:14,930 --> 00:12:20,870
especially on the software side it's

264
00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:23,319
like a treasure or a ledger or key oh I

265
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:25,490
think it's the exact opposite of what

266
00:12:23,319 --> 00:12:28,670
shape-shift is trying to do with it keep

267
00:12:25,490 --> 00:12:31,790
G because it has no computer interface

268
00:12:28,670 --> 00:12:34,639
it's made to do most operations on

269
00:12:31,790 --> 00:12:37,130
device and it uses a bit

270
00:12:34,639 --> 00:12:38,720
I don't recall the number of it but it's

271
00:12:37,130 --> 00:12:43,339
called partially signed Bitcoin

272
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:46,370
transactions you can just power the

273
00:12:43,339 --> 00:12:49,100
device and you operate with an SD card

274
00:12:46,370 --> 00:12:51,829
that you then connect to your computer

275
00:12:49,100 --> 00:12:55,880
and you're supposed to use either

276
00:12:51,829 --> 00:12:58,430
electrum personal server or wasabi

277
00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:00,470
wallet or some kind of third-party open

278
00:12:58,430 --> 00:13:03,500
source software so they don't have like

279
00:13:00,470 --> 00:13:06,529
a computer software implementation this

280
00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:10,009
is gotcha but not for newbies who are

281
00:13:06,529 --> 00:13:11,930
just trying to get into Bitcoin yeah so

282
00:13:10,009 --> 00:13:13,910
exactly that might be really good for

283
00:13:11,930 --> 00:13:15,199
someone who just cares about those

284
00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:17,890
things who's already comfortable with

285
00:13:15,199 --> 00:13:20,170
things like electrum or wasabi

286
00:13:17,890 --> 00:13:22,060
generally those type of interfaces leave

287
00:13:20,170 --> 00:13:26,589
a lot of lacking for the majority of

288
00:13:22,060 --> 00:13:30,010
users is what we found okay so we have

289
00:13:26,589 --> 00:13:32,560
one device left and this classification

290
00:13:30,010 --> 00:13:35,860
and that's the ledger which sometimes

291
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:38,560
quite polarizing because some people

292
00:13:35,860 --> 00:13:42,519
criticize them for not open sourcing all

293
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:44,140
of their code and they criticize the

294
00:13:42,519 --> 00:13:47,920
fact that you have to trust the company

295
00:13:44,140 --> 00:13:52,149
and most of the times that's a bad idea

296
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:54,640
in this sector yeah so I've owned

297
00:13:52,149 --> 00:13:55,810
Ledger's ever since they came out I

298
00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,120
remember when they first started going

299
00:13:55,810 --> 00:13:59,709
to conferences before we even owned to

300
00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,660
keep key and I've always found them

301
00:13:59,709 --> 00:14:04,390
interesting devices I own a number of

302
00:14:01,660 --> 00:14:07,720
different Ledger's myself overall I

303
00:14:04,390 --> 00:14:10,209
think they're great devices I definitely

304
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,740
understand the apprehension about the

305
00:14:10,209 --> 00:14:13,450
fact that not all their firmware

306
00:14:11,740 --> 00:14:15,550
especially is open-source and that

307
00:14:13,450 --> 00:14:18,040
really you know on nerves especially you

308
00:14:15,550 --> 00:14:19,240
know old-school bitcoiners and they're

309
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,589
not always that comfortable with that

310
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,240
and I think that's totally valid if

311
00:14:20,589 --> 00:14:26,529
that's what they want but I've never

312
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:28,510
heard of any major you know attack on

313
00:14:26,529 --> 00:14:30,760
someone's ledger remotely or something

314
00:14:28,510 --> 00:14:33,370
like that that gave me pause or issue so

315
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:35,079
I think that they're pretty secure you

316
00:14:33,370 --> 00:14:37,510
know again one of the problems with the

317
00:14:35,079 --> 00:14:39,310
legacy at least Ledger nano s was just

318
00:14:37,510 --> 00:14:41,019
again that the screen was a little bit

319
00:14:39,310 --> 00:14:43,029
on the small side especially compared to

320
00:14:41,019 --> 00:14:45,220
the keep keys you can't display entire

321
00:14:43,029 --> 00:14:45,970
addresses on it which again can be a

322
00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:48,910
little bit of a man-in-the-middle

323
00:14:45,970 --> 00:14:52,300
problem but overall I think it's a

324
00:14:48,910 --> 00:14:54,279
really still good device I wouldn't tell

325
00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:56,260
anyone not to get a ledger if that's

326
00:14:54,279 --> 00:15:00,579
what the type of you know form factor

327
00:14:56,260 --> 00:15:02,829
and what they were going for so you

328
00:15:00,579 --> 00:15:05,079
spoke about open source code and I think

329
00:15:02,829 --> 00:15:07,240
that's also an interesting discussion to

330
00:15:05,079 --> 00:15:09,399
be had because I want to ask you how

331
00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:13,660
much of the code that goes into the keep

332
00:15:09,399 --> 00:15:16,660
key is open sourced and why do sometimes

333
00:15:13,660 --> 00:15:20,470
competitors call the key key treszura

334
00:15:16,660 --> 00:15:22,690
clone yeah so I'll answer the second

335
00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:24,610
question first which is when we acquired

336
00:15:22,690 --> 00:15:26,529
I mean the the reason they call it a

337
00:15:24,610 --> 00:15:28,540
treasured clone is that when before we

338
00:15:26,529 --> 00:15:30,819
even acquired key key when the original

339
00:15:28,540 --> 00:15:32,510
developers the key key company had

340
00:15:30,819 --> 00:15:34,670
created the device

341
00:15:32,510 --> 00:15:38,120
they forked the original firmware from

342
00:15:34,670 --> 00:15:39,770
the treasure so it is it's not exactly a

343
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,690
clone because the code has diverged

344
00:15:39,770 --> 00:15:44,750
quite a bit over the last two or three

345
00:15:41,690 --> 00:15:47,270
years but originally it was a fork of

346
00:15:44,750 --> 00:15:48,980
the open-source treasure Cove so there

347
00:15:47,270 --> 00:15:51,560
is a lot of relation there in terms of

348
00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:52,790
the foundation of firmware but since

349
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,860
then they've really kind of gone their

350
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:56,780
own separate ways and you know there

351
00:15:54,860 --> 00:15:58,850
there's still some similarities at least

352
00:15:56,780 --> 00:16:00,740
compared to like a ledger but they've

353
00:15:58,850 --> 00:16:04,760
been developed pretty differently over

354
00:16:00,740 --> 00:16:06,680
time and all of kikis firmware is open

355
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,590
source you can go on github and see all

356
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:13,060
of it

357
00:16:08,590 --> 00:16:17,450
ok that's a good answer

358
00:16:13,060 --> 00:16:19,970
so I mentioned in my review in Bitcoin

359
00:16:17,450 --> 00:16:23,300
magazine that the key key is the oldest

360
00:16:19,970 --> 00:16:25,520
design in the review and there are

361
00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:29,690
several features that newer models

362
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:32,000
include and the key doesn't so are you

363
00:16:29,690 --> 00:16:35,240
thinking right now of releasing some

364
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,860
kind of updated key key a different kind

365
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,680
of hardware wallet with a different

366
00:16:36,860 --> 00:16:42,470
design because also I remember the key

367
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:45,620
key was about $200 at some point and now

368
00:16:42,470 --> 00:16:48,950
you can buy it for I think it's 49 or

369
00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:51,950
something or $10 yeah your membership on

370
00:16:48,950 --> 00:16:55,220
shape-shift so yeah some sort of new

371
00:16:51,950 --> 00:16:56,660
premium device coming it's certainly

372
00:16:55,220 --> 00:16:57,800
something we're thinking about

373
00:16:56,660 --> 00:17:00,530
we're not at a point where we're ready

374
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,390
to announce anything on that front or

375
00:17:00,530 --> 00:17:04,430
say that there will be another device

376
00:17:02,390 --> 00:17:06,470
coming you know our real focus in the

377
00:17:04,430 --> 00:17:08,390
immediate short term is improving the

378
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:10,610
experience of using the keep key as much

379
00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:12,620
as possible and so that really means

380
00:17:10,610 --> 00:17:14,329
updates to the software that you use

381
00:17:12,620 --> 00:17:16,310
with it which right now we're the main

382
00:17:14,329 --> 00:17:19,040
focus is the actual shape shift platform

383
00:17:16,310 --> 00:17:21,140
as well as firmware and you know adding

384
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,720
more additional coin support and things

385
00:17:21,140 --> 00:17:25,880
like that is really where the immediate

386
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:31,460
updates are gonna come for the kief game

387
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:33,530
more than a new device so I guess you're

388
00:17:31,460 --> 00:17:36,440
not going to release anytime soon any

389
00:17:33,530 --> 00:17:39,380
kind of model that coin only because I

390
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,820
see that there's a trend that I observed

391
00:17:39,380 --> 00:17:44,360
and pressor

392
00:17:40,820 --> 00:17:45,470
an old car and big box that they

393
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:49,309
replaced I know

394
00:17:45,470 --> 00:17:51,080
devices yeah that's interesting we don't

395
00:17:49,309 --> 00:17:52,730
have any plans to do that on a hardware

396
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,860
level at the moment I think that's

397
00:17:52,730 --> 00:17:56,450
something you know and also you know you

398
00:17:54,860 --> 00:17:58,789
know part of that is you know the chip

399
00:17:56,450 --> 00:18:01,399
chips history is obviously we come from

400
00:17:58,789 --> 00:18:02,750
a very multi point you know philosophy

401
00:18:01,399 --> 00:18:05,149
in place of everything we've done over

402
00:18:02,750 --> 00:18:07,009
time and the majority of our users are

403
00:18:05,149 --> 00:18:09,110
constantly like the biggest requests we

404
00:18:07,009 --> 00:18:11,299
get for Kiki and shape-shift combined is

405
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:13,190
more coins more coins more coins so at

406
00:18:11,299 --> 00:18:15,200
least our user base is not the ones that

407
00:18:13,190 --> 00:18:18,320
are generally asking for a Bitcoin only

408
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:21,289
device that being said if we saw a large

409
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,879
demand for that among our users we could

410
00:18:21,289 --> 00:18:24,440
consider something like that we probably

411
00:18:22,879 --> 00:18:25,820
wouldn't release a new device but we

412
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,559
could release you know a firmware

413
00:18:25,820 --> 00:18:30,169
version that would take everything off

414
00:18:27,559 --> 00:18:31,610
except for the Bitcoin part of the

415
00:18:30,169 --> 00:18:35,360
firmware and that would effectively be

416
00:18:31,610 --> 00:18:37,129
the same thing yeah I think a lot of

417
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:39,200
companies do this I don't think they

418
00:18:37,129 --> 00:18:42,259
have the current hardware but they have

419
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:46,129
just the Bitcoin software or that they

420
00:18:42,259 --> 00:18:47,899
reduce the attack surface yeah it's an

421
00:18:46,129 --> 00:18:49,639
interesting thought again I think if we

422
00:18:47,899 --> 00:18:50,840
saw enough demand from our users to do

423
00:18:49,639 --> 00:18:53,360
that it might be something we consider

424
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,919
but right now the main feedback we're

425
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:57,019
getting from our users is the opposite

426
00:18:54,919 --> 00:19:00,950
they want more coins more assets not

427
00:18:57,019 --> 00:19:03,950
less another popular feature that seems

428
00:19:00,950 --> 00:19:06,139
to be more in demand in the last couple

429
00:19:03,950 --> 00:19:09,860
of years among the corners is the

430
00:19:06,139 --> 00:19:13,009
ability to do multi cigs and some people

431
00:19:09,860 --> 00:19:15,980
were has a good way to secure your coins

432
00:19:13,009 --> 00:19:18,409
because you have different parts of your

433
00:19:15,980 --> 00:19:21,200
private key being in different places

434
00:19:18,409 --> 00:19:23,299
and you can have organizations which

435
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,309
control a certain amount of bitcoins or

436
00:19:23,299 --> 00:19:28,759
you can have families which manage their

437
00:19:25,309 --> 00:19:31,370
funds and have this political dimension

438
00:19:28,759 --> 00:19:34,159
which prevents any one party from

439
00:19:31,370 --> 00:19:37,519
arbitrarily spending the entire amount

440
00:19:34,159 --> 00:19:40,220
and with my experience reviewing the

441
00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:44,990
keep key it's not very friendly with a

442
00:19:40,220 --> 00:19:46,730
multi-sig set ups so do you think you're

443
00:19:44,990 --> 00:19:50,330
going to improve on that or is it a

444
00:19:46,730 --> 00:19:53,120
priority right now yeah so yeah

445
00:19:50,330 --> 00:19:55,850
multi-sig is obviously great there is an

446
00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:57,320
ability to use keep key in multi-sig

447
00:19:55,850 --> 00:19:59,000
fashion today but you're right it's not

448
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,260
super streamlined and you

449
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,170
have to have a decent bit of technical

450
00:20:00,260 --> 00:20:04,640
knowledge to do it correctly it's

451
00:20:03,170 --> 00:20:07,580
definitely something we have talked a

452
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:09,650
lot about in that will either you know

453
00:20:07,580 --> 00:20:11,780
is or will become a priority pretty soon

454
00:20:09,650 --> 00:20:13,940
especially through the new shape shift

455
00:20:11,780 --> 00:20:15,140
platform software using your keep key I

456
00:20:13,940 --> 00:20:17,630
think there's a lot of cool things that

457
00:20:15,140 --> 00:20:20,300
we can and want to do with multi-sig in

458
00:20:17,630 --> 00:20:22,040
the keep key so I definitely think there

459
00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:24,560
will be a lot of multi-sig related

460
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,090
features coming to the keep key you know

461
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:29,450
in the you know short to medium-term

462
00:20:26,090 --> 00:20:31,940
future I don't know exactly when those

463
00:20:29,450 --> 00:20:33,710
will release yet or what they look like

464
00:20:31,940 --> 00:20:35,150
but I think there's quite a few things

465
00:20:33,710 --> 00:20:37,010
we want to do on that front to make

466
00:20:35,150 --> 00:20:39,260
multi-sig just far easier to use with

467
00:20:37,010 --> 00:20:43,340
PPE as well as just on the platform

468
00:20:39,260 --> 00:20:45,410
overall I think right now one of the

469
00:20:43,340 --> 00:20:48,560
main advantages and selling points of

470
00:20:45,410 --> 00:20:51,650
this is the price itself because of the

471
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:54,080
top five biggest Harper wallet

472
00:20:51,650 --> 00:20:57,050
manufacturers you have this device on

473
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:59,420
the market and I can think of ways in

474
00:20:57,050 --> 00:21:01,520
which may be somebody who is security

475
00:20:59,420 --> 00:21:05,180
minded will just buy key key because

476
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:07,670
it's solid its rugged it and has that

477
00:21:05,180 --> 00:21:10,430
nice form factor and it displays the

478
00:21:07,670 --> 00:21:13,540
entire Bitcoin address and they're going

479
00:21:10,430 --> 00:21:17,900
to run something like electrum or wasabi

480
00:21:13,540 --> 00:21:20,630
instead of using the software that you

481
00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:23,300
have for do you have any advice or

482
00:21:20,630 --> 00:21:27,410
recommendations for people who buy the

483
00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:29,600
key key for this purpose yeah I mean

484
00:21:27,410 --> 00:21:31,370
that's a totally legit way to use the

485
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:34,490
key key and if that's you know what

486
00:21:31,370 --> 00:21:36,620
people prefer and want to use then you

487
00:21:34,490 --> 00:21:38,720
know that's totally cool I don't know

488
00:21:36,620 --> 00:21:41,150
that I have any specific advice other

489
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:43,370
than just being careful I've seen at

490
00:21:41,150 --> 00:21:44,300
least a number of people get hit with

491
00:21:43,370 --> 00:21:46,160
phishing attacks

492
00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:48,100
when using electrum know that any

493
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,270
particular software is immune from this

494
00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:51,530
but there there are still a number of

495
00:21:50,270 --> 00:21:53,180
attacks that exist especially on older

496
00:21:51,530 --> 00:21:55,460
versions of electrum that you just have

497
00:21:53,180 --> 00:21:56,870
to be careful about so it definitely

498
00:21:55,460 --> 00:21:58,820
takes again a little more technical

499
00:21:56,870 --> 00:22:00,260
know-how so I think do that correctly

500
00:21:58,820 --> 00:22:02,510
but if you have that technical know-how

501
00:22:00,260 --> 00:22:04,400
then that's a you know perfectly valid

502
00:22:02,510 --> 00:22:05,930
way to use the keep key and there's

503
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,190
nothing wrong with that you just won't

504
00:22:05,930 --> 00:22:08,900
get some of the more advanced features

505
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:10,190
that we're going to be able to offer

506
00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:12,020
through things that the shape-shifts

507
00:22:10,190 --> 00:22:14,929
platform now I'm going forward

508
00:22:12,020 --> 00:22:16,970
oh okay so can you talk about these

509
00:22:14,929 --> 00:22:19,210
advanced features that are going to be

510
00:22:16,970 --> 00:22:22,429
available on the sheep shift platform

511
00:22:19,210 --> 00:22:23,600
yeah so I mean even today you have you

512
00:22:22,429 --> 00:22:25,790
know when you plug a key key into the

513
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,920
ship ship platform you have access to

514
00:22:25,790 --> 00:22:29,030
significantly more you know asset

515
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,240
support then you're gonna get on

516
00:22:29,030 --> 00:22:34,130
electrum you have access to the you know

517
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,110
free trading that we just released in

518
00:22:34,130 --> 00:22:39,559
the last week via our Fox token that you

519
00:22:36,110 --> 00:22:41,450
get for free and that's kind of just the

520
00:22:39,559 --> 00:22:42,950
start of things you also have the

521
00:22:41,450 --> 00:22:45,140
ability to you know view your entire

522
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:47,990
portfolio of assets view that over time

523
00:22:45,140 --> 00:22:49,760
much nicer visualization and we're gonna

524
00:22:47,990 --> 00:22:51,530
be bringing more and more interesting

525
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:54,200
you know features and abilities to

526
00:22:51,530 --> 00:22:55,160
interact with you know the blockchain in

527
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,330
various ways

528
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,040
you know the Bitcoin blockchain but of

529
00:22:56,330 --> 00:23:00,320
course other block chains and you know

530
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,670
daps and things like that things that'll

531
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,950
just be more optimized through the

532
00:23:01,670 --> 00:23:09,590
platform and I just a much nicer UX and

533
00:23:03,950 --> 00:23:11,960
UI okay also when I visited the shapes

534
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:14,990
of platform while doing my review for

535
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:19,490
Bitcoin magazine I noticed that you

536
00:23:14,990 --> 00:23:22,880
enable a future to connect your ledger

537
00:23:19,490 --> 00:23:25,250
or your treasurer to the platform mm-hmm

538
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,710
limp listing me because basically you're

539
00:23:25,250 --> 00:23:31,580
supporting the competition or are you

540
00:23:27,710 --> 00:23:33,020
really yeah we definitely are I I think

541
00:23:31,580 --> 00:23:35,210
actually using your treasurer for

542
00:23:33,020 --> 00:23:36,890
example what the shape shift platform is

543
00:23:35,210 --> 00:23:39,410
the best way to use your treasurer out

544
00:23:36,890 --> 00:23:42,920
today okay I've used it with my treasure

545
00:23:39,410 --> 00:23:44,300
I love it we you know we are definitely

546
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,280
supporting other Hardware wallets on the

547
00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:47,720
shapeshift platform the keep key is

548
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,520
gonna be the device that it's most

549
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,070
optimized for kind of the premium

550
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:54,650
experience but we want to support you

551
00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:56,090
know as many you know relevant hardware

552
00:23:54,650 --> 00:23:58,550
devices like the treasure in the ledger

553
00:23:56,090 --> 00:24:00,410
as we can the ledger support is not

554
00:23:58,550 --> 00:24:02,480
fully out yet but it actually will be in

555
00:24:00,410 --> 00:24:04,490
a matter of weeks not months so that's

556
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,200
coming very soon and yeah we're we're

557
00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:08,840
very happy to support other Hardware

558
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:11,270
wallets in the platform ultimately our

559
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:14,540
goal is to really promote the use of

560
00:24:11,270 --> 00:24:16,370
non-custodial solutions we think the

561
00:24:14,540 --> 00:24:17,660
keep keys a great way to do that and you

562
00:24:16,370 --> 00:24:20,270
know probably the best way to use the

563
00:24:17,660 --> 00:24:21,650
shape shift platform today but we know

564
00:24:20,270 --> 00:24:23,270
that there's a lot of treasure users out

565
00:24:21,650 --> 00:24:25,760
there there's a lot of ledger users and

566
00:24:23,270 --> 00:24:27,710
those devices are still very good device

567
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,900
and we wouldn't tell anyone that they

568
00:24:27,710 --> 00:24:31,850
have to switch to use the shape-shift

569
00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:33,560
platform we think that as long as

570
00:24:31,850 --> 00:24:35,720
they're using a good hardware wallet and

571
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,260
a noncustodial solution that's good

572
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,730
enough for us

573
00:24:36,260 --> 00:24:40,970
we don't doesn't necessarily have to be

574
00:24:37,730 --> 00:24:43,100
the keep key for us to be happy so don't

575
00:24:40,970 --> 00:24:45,500
you think that your disincentivizing

576
00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:49,310
upon purchasing the key key by allowing

577
00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:50,900
them to use just a presser yeah you

578
00:24:49,310 --> 00:24:52,820
could argue that and that might be the

579
00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:54,770
case for some people but ultimately

580
00:24:52,820 --> 00:24:57,260
again the goal is not just to sell keep

581
00:24:54,770 --> 00:24:59,360
keys the goal is to you know put out

582
00:24:57,260 --> 00:25:02,360
software there that really promotes the

583
00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:04,370
use of non-custodial wallet and you know

584
00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:05,750
exchange software and that's really

585
00:25:04,370 --> 00:25:07,700
where shape-shifts bread and butter is

586
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:09,800
we think the key key is a great addition

587
00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:11,780
to that and again is probably the best

588
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,920
use of the experience but you can still

589
00:25:11,780 --> 00:25:13,520
have a really great experience on

590
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,110
shapeshift

591
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,330
without a keep gave with a Tresor of

592
00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:18,530
legend that might mean people don't buy

593
00:25:17,330 --> 00:25:22,460
the keep key and that's okay

594
00:25:18,530 --> 00:25:25,910
we're totally fine with that so what are

595
00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:30,410
cute keys or Shh it's plan for the heart

596
00:25:25,910 --> 00:25:32,000
of a walnut market yeah I mean the main

597
00:25:30,410 --> 00:25:34,390
plan is kind of what we just talked

598
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,280
about which is really producing the best

599
00:25:34,390 --> 00:25:38,570
possible software to use with your

600
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,550
hardware wallet because I think again

601
00:25:38,570 --> 00:25:42,710
that's historically where Hardware

602
00:25:40,550 --> 00:25:44,990
wallets have kind of lacked the most has

603
00:25:42,710 --> 00:25:46,640
been the actual UI and UX of the

604
00:25:44,990 --> 00:25:48,770
software that you connect with in use

605
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,420
and you know the device is one thing and

606
00:25:48,770 --> 00:25:52,070
it's obviously paramount because that's

607
00:25:50,420 --> 00:25:55,040
where your keys are actually kept in the

608
00:25:52,070 --> 00:25:56,690
real security but 90 you know 90 to 95

609
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,220
percent of the time a user is actually

610
00:25:56,690 --> 00:26:00,230
interacting or trying to do a

611
00:25:58,220 --> 00:26:01,940
transaction they have to use the actual

612
00:26:00,230 --> 00:26:03,800
software attached to the thing and

613
00:26:01,940 --> 00:26:06,200
that's where most of their interaction

614
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:08,030
with the device actually happens so in

615
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:11,120
our opinion the most important thing to

616
00:26:08,030 --> 00:26:12,950
do really well in addition to having a

617
00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:14,840
very good key store like a DP or another

618
00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:17,360
hardware while it is the actual software

619
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,430
so a lot of our focus and plans for the

620
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:21,110
immediate future are on improving that

621
00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:23,360
software and making the best possible

622
00:26:21,110 --> 00:26:26,090
you eye and UX for using a hardware

623
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:30,230
wallet storing your assets non-custodial

624
00:26:26,090 --> 00:26:32,780
e and trading on Chris totally do you

625
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:35,060
also consider allowing users to connect

626
00:26:32,780 --> 00:26:38,570
to the shapeshift platform wonderful

627
00:26:35,060 --> 00:26:39,500
nodes as sometimes it's important for

628
00:26:38,570 --> 00:26:41,690
users to have

629
00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:45,170
sort of privacy where their transaction

630
00:26:41,690 --> 00:26:46,670
data gets stored under devices and you

631
00:26:45,170 --> 00:26:48,740
don't have to trust the third-party

632
00:26:46,670 --> 00:26:53,510
whether it's sheet shift or some other

633
00:26:48,740 --> 00:26:54,920
node but they're relaying of yeah yeah

634
00:26:53,510 --> 00:26:56,830
that's a that's an interesting point

635
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,240
definitely something we've considered

636
00:26:56,830 --> 00:27:00,950
right now the best way to do that today

637
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,530
would be to use something like an

638
00:27:00,950 --> 00:27:05,870
electrum at some point it would be nice

639
00:27:03,530 --> 00:27:07,610
to allow the shape shift software to be

640
00:27:05,870 --> 00:27:09,710
run locally and let people to do that

641
00:27:07,610 --> 00:27:11,270
that hasn't really been a priority for

642
00:27:09,710 --> 00:27:12,920
us so the majority of our users that's

643
00:27:11,270 --> 00:27:14,780
not what they're looking for we do

644
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,730
certainly allow the ability though for

645
00:27:14,780 --> 00:27:19,130
someone to use the software totally

646
00:27:16,730 --> 00:27:20,540
anonymously without giving us any

647
00:27:19,130 --> 00:27:23,150
information as long as they only need to

648
00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:25,010
do that if they want to trade so they do

649
00:27:23,150 --> 00:27:26,720
have the ability to get on there and not

650
00:27:25,010 --> 00:27:28,430
give us any information and clear out

651
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,770
any data that they give us you know

652
00:27:28,430 --> 00:27:33,020
after use and things like that but

653
00:27:30,770 --> 00:27:34,790
eventually you know especially there's

654
00:27:33,020 --> 00:27:36,830
demand for it we probably would release

655
00:27:34,790 --> 00:27:38,600
some localized version that can be run

656
00:27:36,830 --> 00:27:41,120
on someone's desktop as well it's just

657
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,730
not an immediate priority yeah I

658
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:47,270
remember that cheap shift was one of the

659
00:27:43,730 --> 00:27:49,700
most popular services in 2017 and a lot

660
00:27:47,270 --> 00:27:51,680
of people were I think mostly converting

661
00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:52,130
Bitcoin for Manero or the other way

662
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,190
around

663
00:27:52,130 --> 00:27:57,410
and at some point I don't know exactly

664
00:27:55,190 --> 00:28:00,730
what happened but you started to allow

665
00:27:57,410 --> 00:28:04,400
people to sign up to the platform and

666
00:28:00,730 --> 00:28:06,790
some people that was the moment when you

667
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:09,320
that much fell out of grace or something

668
00:28:06,790 --> 00:28:12,770
especially to the hardcore maximalists

669
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:15,380
so I think it yeah make a lot of

670
00:28:12,770 --> 00:28:18,230
difference if you allow more privacy for

671
00:28:15,380 --> 00:28:20,450
users but at the same time to meddle

672
00:28:18,230 --> 00:28:24,290
with regulators in a way that also makes

673
00:28:20,450 --> 00:28:26,450
it okay for you yeah it's a it's a fine

674
00:28:24,290 --> 00:28:27,980
line to walk of course but yeah we care

675
00:28:26,450 --> 00:28:30,890
a lot about privacy of our users and

676
00:28:27,980 --> 00:28:33,290
we're very interested to give features

677
00:28:30,890 --> 00:28:35,120
to them some of those like you know

678
00:28:33,290 --> 00:28:37,490
running the software locally is a pretty

679
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:39,290
technically advanced feature that you

680
00:28:37,490 --> 00:28:40,370
know most users are not going to use

681
00:28:39,290 --> 00:28:42,320
that's probably why it hasn't been

682
00:28:40,370 --> 00:28:44,420
prioritized for us yet but we have

683
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,060
prioritized a lot of other privacy

684
00:28:44,420 --> 00:28:49,850
centric features like the ability to use

685
00:28:47,060 --> 00:28:51,560
the entire platform anonymously without

686
00:28:49,850 --> 00:28:53,420
giving us any information and you know

687
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,640
you don't you don't expose anything

688
00:28:53,420 --> 00:28:57,050
that way so there there are various

689
00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,080
things that we will continue to do to

690
00:28:57,050 --> 00:29:01,640
support those privacy centric minded

691
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,580
folks those are still a large part of

692
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,680
our user base yeah I think that's very

693
00:29:04,580 --> 00:29:09,890
important and something else that I

694
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:11,390
think should be considered I don't think

695
00:29:09,890 --> 00:29:13,970
there is demand for it because most

696
00:29:11,390 --> 00:29:16,490
users don't we don't really understand

697
00:29:13,970 --> 00:29:19,790
how it works but you txl control is

698
00:29:16,490 --> 00:29:22,220
essential because sometimes you have 50

699
00:29:19,790 --> 00:29:25,070
bitcoins or something and you're sending

700
00:29:22,220 --> 00:29:27,460
0.1 Bitcoin and you don't want the other

701
00:29:25,070 --> 00:29:31,880
person to know how much Bitcoin you have

702
00:29:27,460 --> 00:29:34,970
and you should try to have smaller UTX

703
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:37,520
cells and maybe to have a point to

704
00:29:34,970 --> 00:29:39,680
Bitcoin UT Excel that needs to send

705
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,290
point one and the other person will not

706
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:46,550
know that's actually old 50 or 100 or

707
00:29:42,290 --> 00:29:49,010
1000 whatever yeah yeah no absolutely

708
00:29:46,550 --> 00:29:51,500
our so our software well are already

709
00:29:49,010 --> 00:29:53,570
automatically try to prioritize your

710
00:29:51,500 --> 00:29:55,940
smallest UT exo's when creating a

711
00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:58,280
transaction most good Bitcoin software

712
00:29:55,940 --> 00:30:00,440
should do that but we have definitely

713
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,600
talked about releasing more advanced

714
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,880
features for power users that would

715
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,310
allow them to you know specifically

716
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,650
choose which Duty exo's they want to use

717
00:30:07,310 --> 00:30:11,030
the transaction which change address etc

718
00:30:09,650 --> 00:30:13,130
that's another one of those features

719
00:30:11,030 --> 00:30:15,410
that you know the majority of I think

720
00:30:13,130 --> 00:30:16,850
our users it's just a little you know

721
00:30:15,410 --> 00:30:19,160
too technically advanced for what they

722
00:30:16,850 --> 00:30:22,460
actually need or want but it would be a

723
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:24,020
great thing to release eventually and I

724
00:30:22,460 --> 00:30:27,830
would you know I would love to have that

725
00:30:24,020 --> 00:30:31,640
feature myself great okay so let's say

726
00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:34,510
that I order a key key today and I get

727
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:37,280
it what kind of software or which

728
00:30:34,510 --> 00:30:39,410
software is our going to run is it the

729
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,930
local software that was used originally

730
00:30:39,410 --> 00:30:44,960
or do I have to connect to the

731
00:30:41,930 --> 00:30:47,390
shapeshift platform so you still have a

732
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,920
choice if you get the key peak today the

733
00:30:47,390 --> 00:30:50,570
recommended experience the best

734
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,150
experience in our opinion is definitely

735
00:30:50,570 --> 00:30:54,980
to connect to the shape shift platform

736
00:30:52,150 --> 00:30:56,750
and it's the most it's the most flexible

737
00:30:54,980 --> 00:30:59,510
because you can access it you know from

738
00:30:56,750 --> 00:31:01,070
anywhere from any device for the most

739
00:30:59,510 --> 00:31:02,510
part even you know even if your key keys

740
00:31:01,070 --> 00:31:03,890
not plugged in you can still check your

741
00:31:02,510 --> 00:31:04,340
balance on your phone and things like

742
00:31:03,890 --> 00:31:06,440
that

743
00:31:04,340 --> 00:31:07,430
so it's a very flexible software but you

744
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,220
can still use the

745
00:31:07,430 --> 00:31:12,380
be quiet you can still use electrum and

746
00:31:10,220 --> 00:31:14,120
so there are other options depending on

747
00:31:12,380 --> 00:31:16,280
what you want but we would definitely

748
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,870
what's-what's but if you buy the device

749
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,130
today what you're gonna see in the

750
00:31:17,870 --> 00:31:21,260
device and what we're going to highly

751
00:31:19,130 --> 00:31:23,660
recommend to you is the platform

752
00:31:21,260 --> 00:31:26,180
software because we think it's you know

753
00:31:23,660 --> 00:31:29,350
far and beyond the best UX for the keep

754
00:31:26,180 --> 00:31:32,990
key and really for any hardware wallet

755
00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:34,970
okay well I actually had another

756
00:31:32,990 --> 00:31:36,560
question let me think

757
00:31:34,970 --> 00:31:39,980
oh yeah it's about the difference in

758
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:44,450
price so you can get a key key today for

759
00:31:39,980 --> 00:31:47,360
I think it is $39 the whole price or you

760
00:31:44,450 --> 00:31:52,010
can get it for $10 if you sign up what

761
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:56,260
shape shift would you see that 39 no $29

762
00:31:52,010 --> 00:31:59,300
is the price that you pay for your data

763
00:31:56,260 --> 00:32:01,640
ya know so not really because we don't

764
00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:02,030
pay we don't pay for data we don't sell

765
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,760
data

766
00:32:02,030 --> 00:32:07,580
honestly the data has no monetary value

767
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,080
to us and we wish you know in a perfect

768
00:32:07,580 --> 00:32:11,390
world we wouldn't take the data at all

769
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:14,060
but you know due to various regulatory

770
00:32:11,390 --> 00:32:16,160
situations it's just a reality that we

771
00:32:14,060 --> 00:32:19,640
have to in some cases at least for

772
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:21,650
trading so the main reason and also that

773
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,300
$10 price is very much a promotional

774
00:32:21,650 --> 00:32:25,970
price that won't last forever and it

775
00:32:23,300 --> 00:32:27,800
won't always be available so that's more

776
00:32:25,970 --> 00:32:29,360
just a promotion we're doing to you know

777
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,650
get people incentive eyes to actually

778
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,330
want to try out the platform and you

779
00:32:30,650 --> 00:32:34,370
know get a kiki which we think is you

780
00:32:32,330 --> 00:32:37,040
know again a great way to store your

781
00:32:34,370 --> 00:32:39,470
keys and hold your funds and we think

782
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,000
that's worthwhile to offer a cheap

783
00:32:39,470 --> 00:32:44,270
option for people who might be on the

784
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:46,250
fence so we think that's what it's more

785
00:32:44,270 --> 00:32:47,870
about it's really not about the cost of

786
00:32:46,250 --> 00:32:50,360
the data because again that doesn't

787
00:32:47,870 --> 00:32:55,580
really have much if any monetary value

788
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:58,640
does company now sometimes I think about

789
00:32:55,580 --> 00:33:00,760
this and Google terms you know when

790
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,590
Google is offering all that suit

791
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:05,600
applications for free and you're

792
00:33:03,590 --> 00:33:08,210
thinking what happens to the files that

793
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,280
I store in the cloud in my Google Drive

794
00:33:08,210 --> 00:33:12,640
or whatever so when I saw this

795
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:16,550
difference my first thought was okay so

796
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:18,200
what happens to that personal data why

797
00:33:16,550 --> 00:33:21,560
does it matter that you sign up with

798
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:24,330
your email address to to shape-shift

799
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,470
yeah and it's a good question and I

800
00:33:24,330 --> 00:33:27,810
think when you're using the Google

801
00:33:25,470 --> 00:33:29,430
example it's a really smart and you know

802
00:33:27,810 --> 00:33:31,860
that is the way to think about it that

803
00:33:29,430 --> 00:33:33,990
is what a company like that is doing in

804
00:33:31,860 --> 00:33:36,960
the case of shape shift though we don't

805
00:33:33,990 --> 00:33:39,150
actually ever do anything with that data

806
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,440
in fact we don't mind it we don't sell

807
00:33:39,150 --> 00:33:41,550
it we don't share it with third parties

808
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,470
we don't sell it to anyone

809
00:33:41,550 --> 00:33:45,330
in fact we're one of the few companies

810
00:33:43,470 --> 00:33:47,130
out there that actually expend a lot of

811
00:33:45,330 --> 00:33:48,870
extra time and engineering effort and

812
00:33:47,130 --> 00:33:51,030
the continuing time and engineering

813
00:33:48,870 --> 00:33:54,150
effort to immediately encrypt all that

814
00:33:51,030 --> 00:33:55,950
data the moment we get it so even even

815
00:33:54,150 --> 00:33:57,570
internally we can't really read it

816
00:33:55,950 --> 00:33:59,850
unless there's some situation where we

817
00:33:57,570 --> 00:34:01,500
have to decrypt and looked at it for you

818
00:33:59,850 --> 00:34:03,840
know a specific regulatory reason or

819
00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:05,850
something like that it's completely

820
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,610
inaccessible it's entirely encrypted the

821
00:34:05,850 --> 00:34:11,790
moment we get it so you're saying that a

822
00:34:08,610 --> 00:34:19,560
way to associate a certain transaction

823
00:34:11,790 --> 00:34:24,480
with a user so we what we can associate

824
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:26,670
with is an X pub and if if we were to

825
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,190
decrypt the data there would be a way

826
00:34:26,670 --> 00:34:32,340
for us to associate that if we had to in

827
00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:34,620
a regulatory situation but we generally

828
00:34:32,340 --> 00:34:36,060
don't do that and again if someone's

829
00:34:34,620 --> 00:34:37,860
really concerned about privacy they

830
00:34:36,060 --> 00:34:39,690
don't have to sign up or give us any

831
00:34:37,860 --> 00:34:42,420
information at all in which case there's

832
00:34:39,690 --> 00:34:44,490
really no way to associate it I think

833
00:34:42,420 --> 00:34:47,490
that this is a useful question because a

834
00:34:44,490 --> 00:34:49,590
lot of people beside the fact that

835
00:34:47,490 --> 00:34:52,560
shapeshift allows you to sign up in the

836
00:34:49,590 --> 00:34:55,380
first place and it's also useful for me

837
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,090
to learn so do you think that in the

838
00:34:55,380 --> 00:34:59,790
future there will be a market for a

839
00:34:57,090 --> 00:35:02,310
Bitcoin transaction data with people

840
00:34:59,790 --> 00:35:05,400
being very interested to acquire a large

841
00:35:02,310 --> 00:35:09,150
amount of transaction so that they can

842
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:14,160
associate and maybe try to find some

843
00:35:09,150 --> 00:35:16,800
sort of relations and links yeah there

844
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:19,080
certainly will be and already is in some

845
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,180
cases so you know a company like chain

846
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,100
analysis and companies like that that

847
00:35:21,180 --> 00:35:24,540
you know primarily sell to regulators in

848
00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:27,180
law enforcement there's already a huge

849
00:35:24,540 --> 00:35:29,310
market for that type of data as well as

850
00:35:27,180 --> 00:35:31,560
anyone that has to deal with any heavy

851
00:35:29,310 --> 00:35:33,630
amounts of regulatory compliance that

852
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,280
all those things already there is large

853
00:35:33,630 --> 00:35:37,010
markets for

854
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:39,500
that type of data we don't personally

855
00:35:37,010 --> 00:35:40,880
take or store such data or sell that

856
00:35:39,500 --> 00:35:43,910
data and we're not interested in

857
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,620
supporting such markets but I you know

858
00:35:43,910 --> 00:35:47,450
it would be a lie to say that there

859
00:35:45,620 --> 00:35:52,010
isn't a lot of interest in such data

860
00:35:47,450 --> 00:35:54,170
there absolutely is ok now let me ask

861
00:35:52,010 --> 00:35:57,560
you I think it's going to be one or two

862
00:35:54,170 --> 00:35:59,690
last questions about hacking hardware

863
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:02,480
wallets and how you react when somebody

864
00:35:59,690 --> 00:36:04,130
hacks our device do you have any kind of

865
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,950
situation where you are under pressure

866
00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:11,090
to release a fix for some kind of

867
00:36:06,950 --> 00:36:12,950
vulnerability yes definitely you know

868
00:36:11,090 --> 00:36:14,870
send the time since we've acquired pukey

869
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:17,300
there have been a number of security

870
00:36:14,870 --> 00:36:18,560
vulnerabilities in the keep key usually

871
00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:20,540
it's not just to keep key it's usually

872
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:24,170
easier to keep key AMPA treasure or the

873
00:36:20,540 --> 00:36:27,400
key treasure and ledger altogether so

874
00:36:24,170 --> 00:36:29,810
usually what happens is we will get a

875
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,610
vulnerability report from some sort of

876
00:36:29,810 --> 00:36:33,290
security researcher or we'll figure out

877
00:36:31,610 --> 00:36:34,340
something internally ourselves and share

878
00:36:33,290 --> 00:36:36,110
it with other companies when that

879
00:36:34,340 --> 00:36:37,720
happens or another company figures out

880
00:36:36,110 --> 00:36:39,410
something that shares it with us

881
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:40,730
generally does tend to be pretty

882
00:36:39,410 --> 00:36:42,770
collaborative even among these

883
00:36:40,730 --> 00:36:44,300
competitive companies because everybody

884
00:36:42,770 --> 00:36:47,240
has an interest in keeping your users

885
00:36:44,300 --> 00:36:49,040
funds safe and it really depends on the

886
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:50,780
vulnerability some vulnerabilities have

887
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,370
been very minor over time and you know

888
00:36:50,780 --> 00:36:53,810
you want to get a fix out there but the

889
00:36:52,370 --> 00:36:55,990
attack surface or the likelihood that

890
00:36:53,810 --> 00:36:58,310
the attack is very very insignificant

891
00:36:55,990 --> 00:36:58,880
and in that case it's not as much of an

892
00:36:58,310 --> 00:37:00,740
emergency

893
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,790
but then yeah sometimes there have been

894
00:37:00,740 --> 00:37:04,070
vulnerabilities that are more

895
00:37:01,790 --> 00:37:05,600
significant or more worrisome and you

896
00:37:04,070 --> 00:37:07,970
try to get those you know a firmware

897
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:10,000
update to patch those out as quickly as

898
00:37:07,970 --> 00:37:12,110
possible without revealing any

899
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,690
information about the attack or how to

900
00:37:12,110 --> 00:37:16,130
do it until the update is out there so

901
00:37:14,690 --> 00:37:17,540
that's always something that you deal

902
00:37:16,130 --> 00:37:19,450
with when you have when you you know or

903
00:37:17,540 --> 00:37:21,680
an owner of a hardware device like this

904
00:37:19,450 --> 00:37:23,000
you know it's just inevitable that

905
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,370
people are gonna keep trying to hack

906
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:29,270
things over time nothing will ever be

907
00:37:25,370 --> 00:37:30,710
100% safe there will always be potential

908
00:37:29,270 --> 00:37:32,840
issues that can pop up and the most

909
00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:34,400
important thing is to just know that you

910
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,470
have a team behind that Hardware wallet

911
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,480
that you own that's gonna react to those

912
00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:40,370
things quickly the good news is that the

913
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,710
vast majority of these attacks even the

914
00:37:40,370 --> 00:37:45,230
serious ones almost all of them require

915
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:48,050
some sort of physical access to the

916
00:37:45,230 --> 00:37:50,300
device to do anything significant

917
00:37:48,050 --> 00:37:52,130
I've seen very few with any actual

918
00:37:50,300 --> 00:37:54,650
remote type attacks which would be far

919
00:37:52,130 --> 00:37:57,110
more worrisome but you know this the the

920
00:37:54,650 --> 00:37:58,820
ones with the device in hand are still

921
00:37:57,110 --> 00:38:01,280
serious and we patch those as quickly as

922
00:37:58,820 --> 00:38:02,900
we can but those tend to be a lower

923
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,700
attack surface than you know someone

924
00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:06,710
that's able to you know do something

925
00:38:04,700 --> 00:38:08,600
online and take over your computer and

926
00:38:06,710 --> 00:38:10,370
attack the device that way so that's

927
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,990
that's very very rare with hardware

928
00:38:10,370 --> 00:38:14,120
wallets because of their designs and

929
00:38:11,990 --> 00:38:15,650
keeping the key is offline and that's

930
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,590
really what you know helps prioritize

931
00:38:15,650 --> 00:38:22,640
what is an emergency and what is it so

932
00:38:18,590 --> 00:38:25,460
would you agree that it's very it's

933
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:28,580
essential to keep your hardware wallet

934
00:38:25,460 --> 00:38:33,440
away from physical contact and any type

935
00:38:28,580 --> 00:38:38,300
of physical tampering and that's the the

936
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:40,610
main attack vector to any device yes you

937
00:38:38,300 --> 00:38:43,400
know so as our you know our chief

938
00:38:40,610 --> 00:38:45,320
security officer would say anytime

939
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,990
someone has physical access to something

940
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,640
given enough time and motivation there's

941
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:51,800
likely a way that they can break into

942
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,290
that thing you know it's a big

943
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,540
difference between whether that takes a

944
00:38:54,290 --> 00:38:59,270
few seconds or you know days or weeks of

945
00:38:56,540 --> 00:39:01,040
dedicated time and equipment but yes

946
00:38:59,270 --> 00:39:03,170
definitely you know if you have a large

947
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,520
amount of funds on your hardware device

948
00:39:03,170 --> 00:39:06,140
you should treat it as you would

949
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,280
anything else that you would keep a

950
00:39:06,140 --> 00:39:08,690
large amount of funds with and you

951
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,060
shouldn't just let people have physical

952
00:39:08,690 --> 00:39:12,650
access to it at any time without your

953
00:39:11,060 --> 00:39:16,880
knowledge that's never gonna be good

954
00:39:12,650 --> 00:39:19,190
from an ops sector security paradigm ok

955
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,590
so my left question is about something

956
00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:24,290
which I discovered while doing my review

957
00:39:21,590 --> 00:39:26,600
for Bitcoin Magazine I was not able to

958
00:39:24,290 --> 00:39:29,540
find any kind of section on your website

959
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,970
which mentions bounty programs in case

960
00:39:29,540 --> 00:39:34,580
somebody finds a vulnerability in the

961
00:39:31,970 --> 00:39:37,010
keep key and they want to get a we work

962
00:39:34,580 --> 00:39:39,740
but what did what do they do more

963
00:39:37,010 --> 00:39:42,260
exactly yes so there is there is

964
00:39:39,740 --> 00:39:45,170
actually a bounty program that we are

965
00:39:42,260 --> 00:39:46,880
consistently running for that I wonder

966
00:39:45,170 --> 00:39:51,650
if it's maybe it's not on the keep key

967
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:54,080
it's on the shape-shift actually look at

968
00:39:51,650 --> 00:39:56,000
the responsible disclosure program

969
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:58,070
there is an actual whole section about

970
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:01,670
that and we list people that we've paid

971
00:39:58,070 --> 00:40:03,230
how much what how to report to us so we

972
00:40:01,670 --> 00:40:04,280
do actually have a whole policy how to

973
00:40:03,230 --> 00:40:07,240
deal with this and we've been running

974
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,240
that for quite a while

975
00:40:07,470 --> 00:40:13,720
okay you just gave me some homework yeah

976
00:40:12,010 --> 00:40:15,430
if you go to if you go to shape-shift

977
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:17,020
calm and just look in the footer you'll

978
00:40:15,430 --> 00:40:18,730
see a link to a responsible disclosure

979
00:40:17,020 --> 00:40:20,290
policy and there's a whole page

980
00:40:18,730 --> 00:40:21,850
describing everything we do on that

981
00:40:20,290 --> 00:40:26,800
front so yeah we've been running that

982
00:40:21,850 --> 00:40:29,350
ever since we required Kiki okay so John

983
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,390
thank you very much for doing this I got

984
00:40:29,350 --> 00:40:34,830
you answer even the toughest of

985
00:40:31,390 --> 00:40:37,180
questions that may not be comfortable

986
00:40:34,830 --> 00:40:39,520
absolutely so the time earns about

987
00:40:37,180 --> 00:40:40,930
Harper wallets and what you think they

988
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:44,140
should be on how they're going to

989
00:40:40,930 --> 00:40:45,580
improve in the coming years sure I mean

990
00:40:44,140 --> 00:40:47,200
I think that again the most important

991
00:40:45,580 --> 00:40:48,460
thing is that I think the majority of

992
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,840
hardware wallets on the market

993
00:40:48,460 --> 00:40:51,790
especially when you're talking about the

994
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,370
key key the treasurer and the ledger do

995
00:40:51,790 --> 00:40:57,370
a very good job of keeping your he's

996
00:40:54,370 --> 00:40:59,170
disconnected from the internet and not

997
00:40:57,370 --> 00:41:01,510
being exposed that way which is honestly

998
00:40:59,170 --> 00:41:04,510
the biggest risk for any crypto user on

999
00:41:01,510 --> 00:41:05,770
a day to day basis so I think the most

1000
00:41:04,510 --> 00:41:07,750
important thing I would get out to

1001
00:41:05,770 --> 00:41:09,130
people is just the importance of using a

1002
00:41:07,750 --> 00:41:11,290
hardware device like that if you're

1003
00:41:09,130 --> 00:41:12,670
going to store your own keys which we at

1004
00:41:11,290 --> 00:41:13,720
shape-shift certainly think you should

1005
00:41:12,670 --> 00:41:16,210
for a number of reasons

1006
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:18,070
you're probably easiest most convenient

1007
00:41:16,210 --> 00:41:19,990
way to do that in a very safe way is

1008
00:41:18,070 --> 00:41:22,060
with a hardware wallet and we think

1009
00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:23,260
that's worthwhile and we personally

1010
00:41:22,060 --> 00:41:24,940
think the key keys a great way to do

1011
00:41:23,260 --> 00:41:27,400
that and that it has the best software

1012
00:41:24,940 --> 00:41:30,070
experience you can possibly have and

1013
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,210
it's only gonna get better so we you

1014
00:41:30,070 --> 00:41:33,130
know we just really encourage people

1015
00:41:31,210 --> 00:41:36,820
hold your own keys not your keys not

1016
00:41:33,130 --> 00:41:38,800
your crypto okay thank you very much and

1017
00:41:36,820 --> 00:41:41,230
just so you know this entire season is

1018
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,960
going to consist of ten episodes or

1019
00:41:41,230 --> 00:41:46,720
Hardware wallet makers get to talk about

1020
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:49,570
their product and they promote what is

1021
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:52,180
special about the devices that they're

1022
00:41:49,570 --> 00:41:54,280
developing and selling and there's also

1023
00:41:52,180 --> 00:41:56,620
going to be a section dedicated to

1024
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,930
hackers so that they can give some

1025
00:41:56,620 --> 00:42:01,870
advice and maybe tell stories about how

1026
00:41:58,930 --> 00:42:02,680
they broke into some kind of device so

1027
00:42:01,870 --> 00:42:04,480
thank you John

1028
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:09,460
thank you very much flood thanks for

1029
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:11,010
having me let's hear a few words from

1030
00:42:09,460 --> 00:42:19,240
the show's sponsors

1031
00:42:11,010 --> 00:42:22,130
[Music]

1032
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:22,970
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1033
00:42:22,130 --> 00:42:26,450
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1034
00:42:22,970 --> 00:42:28,880
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1035
00:42:26,450 --> 00:42:32,300
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1036
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1037
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1038
00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:40,880
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1039
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1040
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,500
with top out coins they follow the

1041
00:42:43,820 --> 00:42:47,660
natural keys not your bitcoins

1042
00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:50,030
philosophy but they're integrated

1043
00:42:47,660 --> 00:42:52,880
noncustodial wallet which helps you

1044
00:42:50,030 --> 00:42:55,040
manage your own private keys so if

1045
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,530
you're into trading then you don't have

1046
00:42:55,040 --> 00:43:00,830
to worry about having your crypto frozen

1047
00:42:57,530 --> 00:43:02,720
by whatever political decisions since

1048
00:43:00,830 --> 00:43:06,170
you're empowered to hold and move your

1049
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:09,170
coins whenever you wish it's great to

1050
00:43:06,170 --> 00:43:12,170
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1051
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your financial sovereignty LX mi is

1052
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launching in 2020 and for more

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information please check out L X M I dot

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IO if you're not into trading it's

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recommended to move your points to a

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hardware wallet or some other form of

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hole storage and in this episode you're

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about to find out why please keep in

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mind that this is just an ad for a

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sponsor of the show it's not meant to

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serve as financial advice and you're

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responsible to do your own research

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before buying anything and act according

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to your own decisions

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embrace your financial sovereignty with

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agency and precaution

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hey you looking for the simplest way to

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get started sending Satoshi's on the

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Lightning Network then sign up with your

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social account on bottle pain now

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autoplay is your premium lightning

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service for unfairly cheap and

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effortless Bitcoin payments it is

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powerful enough to offer all of the

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payment features in need while also

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being simple enough for no corners to

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understand no more confusion and

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headaches sensitive she's instantly to

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anyone on a supportive social network in

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a couple of clicks log in today at

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bottle da Li and receive 1000 free

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satoshis to get you started sending and

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receiving bitcoins follow the steps to

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become a power user and earn even more

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head over to bottle l-i and get started

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now

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Written by Vlad
I like Bitcoin and I'm doing this podcast. Message me on Twitter if you'd like to be a guest.