During the 10th edition of Hackers Congress at Paralelni Polis (HCPP), I’ve had the pleasure to meet Lisa Neigut and Calle. The former has already been on the Bitcoin Takeover podcast last year, when she spoke about her work on Core Lightning. In the meantime, Lisa quit her Blockstream job to focus on her own project that’s called Base58 – and the Bitcoin++ series of events which she holds worldwide.

On the other hand, Calle finds himself in a slightly different situation: back in September 2022, probably while I was sitting with him at a table in a Riga bar during Baltic Honeybadger, he came up with Cashu. Essentially, Cashu is Chaumian ecash for custodial Lightning wallets. So even if your funds are held by someone else, you can still get a large degree of privacy against your custodian.

Lisa and Calle are an unlikely pairing: they have different personalities and focus on projects that don’t have too much in common. However, this interview has been a lot of fun. So much fun that we took a break after the first hour, went upstairs to get a few more drinks at the Paralelni Polis cafe, and then came back to record for another hour!

The Importance of Privacy in the Bitcoin Community

Our conversation kicked off with a discussion about the importance of privacy in the Bitcoin community. We were all present at the HCPP event, which featured a variety of talks and presentations – including one by Richard Stallman on the importance of free software. We briefly debated on the difference between open source and free software. The topic would become a recurring theme throughout our discussion.

“Bitcoin doesn’t need e-cash to work, but bitcoin improves e-cash.”

Calle, 2023

Free Software vs. Open Source

We delved deeper into the concept of free software and open source. Calle pointed out that being open source is only one aspect of being free software, and there are four criteria for it. We also talked about Richard Stallman and his long-standing involvement in the free software movement, which started in the 90s. Lisa reflected on the state of software development and how it may feel for someone like Stallman who has been fighting for free software for so long. We all agreed that Stallman’s appearance at the conference was an opportunity for him to share his message with the audience, who are the ones that will carry it forward in the future.

The Global Reach of the Internet and Bitcoin

Our conversation then shifted to the global reach of the internet and how it affects the distribution of apps and services. We acknowledged that simply shipping an app does not guarantee it will reach every market and distribution center in the world. We highlighted the unique positioning of companies like IBEX Mercado and Brink Galloy in South America, which have found success by catering to specific locational factors and adopting Bitcoin.

The Advantages and Disadvantages of Open Sourcing Software

We also discussed the advantages and disadvantages of open sourcing software. While closed source software may protect a company’s competitive advantage, it also limits the potential for growth and innovation within the global ecosystem. We expressed both excitement and concern about the current state of the Lightning Network, acknowledging the need for more exploration and funding for its development.

Running Lightning Nodes at Home

One of the key topics we discussed was the importance of running nodes and services at home as part of the Bitcoin project. Calle expressed excitement about the idea of people running their own nodes and servers at home, comparing it to the early vision of the free software movement where individuals would operate their own web and mail servers. However, Lisa pointed out that running a Lightning node at home may not fulfill all the needs of a daily Lightning wallet, as Lightning works better with a lot of channels and capacity.

“As bitcoiners, we don’t appreciate how much our participation in the privacy space is important for both bitcoin and the builders and hackers in this space.”

Lisa Neigut, 2023

The Success of Umbrel and Other Not Really Open Source Software

We also discussed the success of a software called Umbrel, which we believe is due to its commercial license that doesn’t allow forking and commercial deployment. While Umbrel is not our favorite software, it has a user-friendly interface similar to Apple’s. We also mentioned other alternatives like RaspiBlitz, My Node, Nodl, and Start9 Embassy OS.

Calle Explains the Potential of E-Cash

Towards the end of our discussion, we touched on the potential of Chaumian e-cash and its impact on privacy and financial systems. Calle emphasized how e-cash is scalable, cheap, and fast, making it an excellent tool for improving privacy. It eliminates the need for user databases and transaction tracking, making it less complex to run services.

The Concept of the “Supra Cycle”

We ended our discussion on a lighter note, discussing the concept of the Supra Cycle – which involves getting a Toyota Supra and a girlfriend as a symbol of success and independence. We joked about the Supra being “the pleb’s Lambo”: 90% of a Lamborghini experience at a fraction of the price.

The Future of Bitcoin, according to Lisa Neigut and Calle

My discussion with Lisa Neigut and Calle was insightful and thought-provoking. We delved into various aspects of Bitcoin, from privacy to free software, and how we can scale it. Our opinion is that Bitcoin has a bright future, and we look forward to seeing how it evolves. Lisa also invites all listeners to join her at the upcoming Bitcoin++ events, while Calle encourages you to try Cashu.

Listen to Lisa Neigut and Calle talk about scaling Bitcoin and free open source software on Apple Podcasts, Spotify & YouTube!

Time stamps:

00:01:20 – Introduction to Base58 & Cashu

00:02:42 – Base58 and the Bitcoin++ conferences

00:06:58 – Richard Stallman and the Free Software Movement

00:10:45 – What is free software?

00:14:06 – What is open source software and why is it limited in certain Bitcoin projects?

00:19:20 – Exploration of the benefits of having smaller entities running systems rather than relying on one large company, and the potential for reaching untapped markets.

00:20:31 – Bitcoin’s global adoption (IBEX, Brink)

00:21:12 – Open Source vs Closed Source Software

00:25:15 – Concentration of Lightning Network Nodes

00:30:09 – The Home Node and Lightning’s Scalability Issues

00:33:30 – Bitcoin as the Catalyst for Self-Sovereignty

00:38:34 – The Importance of Umbrel in the Self-Sovereignty Movement

00:39:21 – The success of closed-source software

00:40:19 – RaspiBlitz, MyNode, Nodl, Start9 Labs Embassy OS vs Umbrel

00:41:22 – Discussion on the need for free software

00:48:50 – The bootstrap process of the Lightning Network

00:49:44 – Ark and VC money

00:50:38 – Centralization concerns with ARK

00:57:58 – Ark vs Drivechains

00:59:12 – Sidechains and extension blocks

01:01:27 – Ark & CTV are educational

01:08:54 – A short history of ecash

01:10:24 – Ecash enables privacy + scalability

01:11:34 – How Cashu works on Lightning

01:19:13 – Scaling Bitcoin with Cashu

01:20:14 – Blind Signature Scheme and Privacy in eCash

01:21:58 – The Supra Cycle & girlfriends

01:29:45 – Will HODLing BTC make you rich?

01:30:13 – Why hard money matters

01:32:38 – Bitcoin adoption needs payments for increasing demand

01:40:30 – The role of miners in Bitcoin

01:41:34 – Bitcoin follows incentives, not virtue

01:43:11 – How do we measure Bitcoin’s success?

01:54:13 – Bitcoin’s fee market

01:57:10 – Can Bitcoin succeed without high fees?

01:59:15 – Should we wait until the problems actually become urgent?

02:00:10 – Scaling Bitcoin with Lightning Network

02:01:16 – Optimism for Future Bitcoin Developments

02:02:15 – Importance of Research and Multiple Proposals