S2 E8: Giacomo Zucco on Neutrino, The B, and Bitcoin-only conferences

The second season of The Bitcoin Takeover Podcast takes off with a surprise teaser episode involving Italian BTC maximalist Giacomo Zucco.

Throughout the hour-long interview, you will get to find out more information about Mr. Zucco’s opinions on Neutrino and the security of Bitcoin, the efforts that he has made with the B in order to secure funding for developers, and the level of BTC adoption in Northern Italy and Switzerland.

Furthermore, you will get to find out more information about the Understanding Bitcoin Conference, which takes place in Malta between the 5th and the 7th of April 2019.

Enjoy this hour-long interview and expect many more surprises that may or may not involve Wassim Alsindi, Hodlonaut, R. L. Bryer, Chris DeRose, Udi Wertheimer, Pierre Rochard, Brent Philbin, and some surprise guests.

If you don’t want to watch the beautiful Swiss Alps visuals, you may also listen to the podcast on iTunes and Spotify.

According to the 5 Rules of The Bitcoin Takeover Podcast, this second season also pursues an artistic direction. This time, it’s about travelling via train and pretending the beautiful countryside landscapes. In this particular episode, you will be seeing images from a railroad ride from Bologna to Milan, as well as a trip to Switzerland.

Somewhere in the middle you will also find some touristic attractions from Milan, which is Giacomo’s city of origin. You may also find some moment of synchronicity, where the discussions are beautifully complemented by the images. In this regard, it’s just like listening to Pink Floyd’s “The Dark Side of the Moon” while watching “The Wizard of Oz”: there are plenty of surprising moments when it all makes sense.

However, this season I won’t be presenting images that were filmed by me. Therefore, since I’m making use of other people’s footage, I feel obliged to give credit:

Tutto Treno: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou2efUpN8o8
Timosha 21: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq6nBBo1o5Y
Pasan Jayasinghe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH52hGy4d7E
Samuel and Audrey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5v1_xpcEjw
Vherra Serano: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovhmsKMkU08

If you find this episode useful in any way, you may donate BTC to the following address: 3HLoX356C6VenMfhUJULb5oSZnrsM7LYyX

According to the rules, half of each individual donation is given to the guest (who in turn, can either keep the satoshis or pass them on to a charitable cause of choice).

If you prefer the Lightning Network, you may also send tips via Tippin.me. And if you’re an ardent proponent of Gresham’s law and would rather HODL your sats, feel free to donate $1 of your dirty Uncle Sam fiat on Patreon.

Automatic transcript (great for search engine optimization):

0:00:00.540,0:00:03.730
[Music]

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[Music]

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[Laughter]

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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the Bitcoin

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takeover podcast

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I am Vlad and today my guest is Giacomo

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Zuko who is one of the best-known

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Bitcoin maximalist who also embraces

0:00:57.929,0:01:04.890
very proudly this etiquette of being a

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maximalist and he's involved with many

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Bitcoin projects like the bhp Network

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and also he took part in founding the

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bee which was supposed to be or is

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supposed to be I'm not sure what's going

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on with it but it's an initiative to

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support developing and other projects

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that are related strictly to Bitcoin and

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there's a lot going on with him if you

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follow him on Twitter you're going to

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see that he's up to date with all the

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big topics and he has an opinion in

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anything so that's why I'm happy to have

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him here and also I've interviewed habló

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not a few episodes before this and he

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said that you are one of his idols so

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hello to everybody

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I'm very grateful for these with this

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sentence by him he's a celebrity now I

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used to be a pleb like ass but after

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Jack Dorsey took the torch is now a

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celebrity so I'm super honored no

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actually the the lighting Network trust

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the torch was a very very neat idea of

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course there was a glory moment for Auto

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note when Jack Dorsey decided to step in

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at Waikiki but also a lot of other even

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more interesting moments like the

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moments with the torch we move it from

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from a western country to i today from

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the us today to Iran in violation of of

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global money capital capital

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restrictions and then back from Iran to

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Israel which is something great and

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recently is passing over different I

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mean Venezuela and different countries

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were Bitcoin is actually forbidden so

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the Latin Network torches what was the

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great thing and I

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and I pay back my respect to Odin out

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for this very very nice idea yeah I'm

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happy to have you here and I know and

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I've noticed on your Twitter feed that

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you have quite some interesting opinions

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about neutrino and I don't mean the

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company which was bought by coinbase and

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used to be part of the hacking team

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which supported some authoritarian

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regimes

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it's about be IP 157 if I'm not mistaken

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and then correct

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people like Kiera shard who developed

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the what's that called lightning

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launcher the node launcher yep answer

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she is one of the biggest advocates and

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says that it's necessary for the

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development to carry on so what is your

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take on this so first of all even I had

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something to say even about the other

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neutrino because this is a little-known

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thing but the the neutrino I mean this

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despite the spyware company neutrino

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acquired by coinbase was actually hit

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quarter inland in the same offices of

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PHP network and they came to us in order

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to to be an advice for an investment by

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one of our clients so we had to do with

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them a long time ago we decided to to to

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suggest our clients and not to invest

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for ethical reasons and it was a it was

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fine to be proven right after after a

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while so yeah I have some interesting

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candidates about them as well but

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getting back to the PAP is dead and to

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enter the debate that is raging in in

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Beacon Twitter right now the point that

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some of us are making with ours I don't

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just mean observers like me but also

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active developers like especially Luke -

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here

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the Bitcoin developer and the Nicholas

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doriath

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participate be TCP server developer and

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some other guys who D

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other people the main point is that

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neutrino could be bad because it is too

0:05:12.389,0:05:18.029
good and this can can can look

0:05:15.289,0:05:18.659
paradoxical but but I will try to

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explain

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so basically when Satoshi Nakamoto

0:05:21.539,0:05:30.719
launched Bitcoin he had an idea in mind

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about a way to to use Bitcoin of on top

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of very a very lightweight devices and

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his idea was called SPV simple simple

0:05:38.429,0:05:45.239
protocol verification so the idea was

0:05:42.179,0:05:48.019
something like this the light client

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will not verify the rules of Bitcoin

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they would just get blockchain

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block headers from from people's and

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they will know that the block headers

0:05:58.289,0:06:04.049
they received are valid because if they

0:06:01.979,0:06:06.569
are not valid we will prevent some kind

0:06:04.049,0:06:10.979
of fraud proof cryptographic allowed

0:06:06.569,0:06:12.779
proofs that are that are possible to

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prove even without having the blockchain

0:06:12.779,0:06:17.610
so some kind of zero knowledge proof in

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which you can prove that the

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transactions are included in blocks and

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blocks themselves are valid in respect

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to the rules of Bitcoin even without

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having the full blockchain unfortunately

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their this idea didn't work out it was

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impossible to implement for proofs it

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may be impossible in general we still

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don't know there are good arguments who

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think that something like that could

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never be done and so a guy that is

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working and was already working since is

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a while for the are trees have private

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blockchains chemi company this guy was

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called Mike Hearn basically implemented

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in a different idea in which you

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basically don't validate anything you

0:07:00.389,0:07:04.709
don't validate the roots of Bitcoin you

0:07:02.639,0:07:07.229
just check that your transaction are

0:07:04.709,0:07:10.049
included by some miners with with the

0:07:07.229,0:07:12.809
asteroid majority and if the miners are

0:07:10.049,0:07:14.740
included with majority the transaction

0:07:12.809,0:07:16.960
then you trust the

0:07:14.740,0:07:19.240
the Rousseau Bitcoin a perspective even

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if you don't check the respect of the

0:07:19.240,0:07:27.700
rules yourself yourself so this was

0:07:22.180,0:07:30.400
called SPV mocking i mean paying tribute

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to Satoshi nakamoto's idea of simple

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verification payment actually is really

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improper because it's not a verification

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any anyhow you don't verify anything you

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just you just verify that miners in

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majority are saying that that chain is

0:07:45.370,0:07:52.750
is a havior but you don't verify the

0:07:48.580,0:07:56.260
validity at all and and that's a kind of

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thing that is very dangerous for the co

0:07:56.260,0:08:01.870
system because for example if you

0:07:58.840,0:08:05.380
remember when the 2x attack on Bitcoin

0:08:01.870,0:08:08.140
was was ready to be launched many people

0:08:05.380,0:08:11.500
working for the attack against Bitcoin

0:08:08.140,0:08:14.770
such as Jeff Karthik and and others they

0:08:11.500,0:08:17.680
say we will succeed in the attack

0:08:14.770,0:08:21.640
because even if a Bitcoin full node will

0:08:17.680,0:08:25.300
reject our 2 X blocks as invalid all the

0:08:21.640,0:08:27.880
SPV nodes all day become wallet that use

0:08:25.300,0:08:31.060
this idea from my kernel they will

0:08:27.880,0:08:34.930
blindly follow the heaviest chain even

0:08:31.060,0:08:37.390
if the abyss chain is embedded so it's

0:08:34.930,0:08:39.250
important to understand that this this

0:08:37.390,0:08:41.620
is not actually the original Bitcoin

0:08:39.250,0:08:45.640
security model the beacon security model

0:08:41.620,0:08:48.820
is that I can use my node to know if the

0:08:45.640,0:08:52.060
transaction is valid or invalid and only

0:08:48.820,0:08:54.370
if one particular transaction and if one

0:08:52.060,0:08:57.690
transactional history is valid now I

0:08:54.370,0:09:01.720
delegate to ash power not the validity

0:08:57.690,0:09:04.720
guarantee but only which one of which

0:09:01.720,0:09:06.520
one among the valid histories will be

0:09:04.720,0:09:09.850
the one that I should take into account

0:09:06.520,0:09:12.250
as final so if you send me two different

0:09:09.850,0:09:15.340
valid transactions the ash power

0:09:12.250,0:09:18.330
majority is all we used in Bitcoin to

0:09:15.340,0:09:21.160
choose which one of the two valid

0:09:18.330,0:09:22.990
transactions should be the final one in

0:09:21.160,0:09:25.209
order to avoid the double spending so

0:09:22.990,0:09:27.670
even if there is some risk

0:09:25.209,0:09:30.009
delegating this kind of this kind of

0:09:27.670,0:09:32.800
dynamic to minors there is some risk

0:09:30.009,0:09:34.420
because you can have a 51% attack and

0:09:32.800,0:09:36.189
you can have double spending but the

0:09:34.420,0:09:38.139
risk is very low because that the worst

0:09:36.189,0:09:40.509
thing that a majority of minors could do

0:09:38.139,0:09:42.429
with this kind of security model will be

0:09:40.509,0:09:45.279
basically to double spend their own

0:09:42.429,0:09:48.309
money with some dot so let's assume that

0:09:45.279,0:09:50.589
between get control of fifty percent of

0:09:48.309,0:09:53.679
sixty percent or 80 percent of the

0:09:50.589,0:09:57.129
network they can pay to an exchange then

0:09:53.679,0:09:59.949
they can mine on a new blockchain that

0:09:57.129,0:10:01.749
Olfa needs the other the other block and

0:09:59.949,0:10:03.939
they can get their money their own money

0:10:01.749,0:10:08.410
back so this is the worst they can do

0:10:03.939,0:10:12.220
and and it's kind of problematic but not

0:10:08.410,0:10:15.579
really life-threatening for Bitcoin on

0:10:12.220,0:10:18.550
the other hand on the fake SPV

0:10:15.579,0:10:21.819
quote-unquote mole that my current

0:10:18.550,0:10:26.800
promoted based on bloom filters if bit

0:10:21.819,0:10:30.490
main has 50% or 70% or 80% it was

0:10:26.800,0:10:33.429
actually close to control kind of 90% of

0:10:30.490,0:10:36.279
our power at the point they can change

0:10:33.429,0:10:38.490
any kind of rule in Bitcoin and all the

0:10:36.279,0:10:42.160
clients will jump it will just blindly

0:10:38.490,0:10:44.379
follow this this new invalid chain so

0:10:42.160,0:10:46.689
they can inflate Bitcoin they can create

0:10:44.379,0:10:49.059
inflation they can steal satoshis

0:10:46.689,0:10:51.579
moaning they can steal my money or your

0:10:49.059,0:10:54.429
money without valid keys they can do

0:10:51.579,0:10:56.829
whatever they want of course in a model

0:10:54.429,0:10:59.019
with full nodes that's not the case so

0:10:56.829,0:11:01.029
this was a debate in Bitcoin since a

0:10:59.019,0:11:04.269
long time and a lot of people were

0:11:01.029,0:11:06.879
proposing to actually duplicate this

0:11:04.269,0:11:08.170
function in in Bitcoin core this

0:11:06.879,0:11:12.129
function is called a bloom filter

0:11:08.170,0:11:15.220
basically a full node listens to this

0:11:12.129,0:11:18.129
kind of light clients when they ask for

0:11:15.220,0:11:20.499
the block header without any kind of

0:11:18.129,0:11:23.679
validation and the full node which is

0:11:20.499,0:11:26.920
validating will provide two to light

0:11:23.679,0:11:29.319
polite clients the block headers in

0:11:26.920,0:11:31.420
order to trust the miners without any

0:11:29.319,0:11:34.200
kind of verification and there was some

0:11:31.420,0:11:38.250
suggestion to two

0:11:34.200,0:11:40.560
to basically turn off by default this

0:11:38.250,0:11:42.420
option in Bitcoin core in order not to

0:11:40.560,0:11:45.300
promote this broken and very dangerous

0:11:42.420,0:11:47.100
security model but this problem this

0:11:45.300,0:11:48.900
proposal never really made it because

0:11:47.100,0:11:51.510
mostly because people didn't want

0:11:48.900,0:11:55.020
Bitcoin core developers didn't want to

0:11:51.510,0:11:57.240
break down compatibility with with more

0:11:55.020,0:12:00.000
less using this this very bad security

0:11:57.240,0:12:02.760
model so they decided to to not

0:12:00.000,0:12:05.820
deprecated this function now enter

0:12:02.760,0:12:09.330
neutrino neutrino and this new VIP is a

0:12:05.820,0:12:13.890
is a way better way to do the same thing

0:12:09.330,0:12:17.040
so instead of basically asking for a

0:12:13.890,0:12:19.110
full node to give you some particular

0:12:17.040,0:12:21.330
parts of proofs that you need to know

0:12:19.110,0:12:24.660
that your transaction is included into

0:12:21.330,0:12:27.000
the heaviest block block block header

0:12:24.660,0:12:29.930
chain instead of asking that you

0:12:27.000,0:12:33.000
basically have some kind of client-side

0:12:29.930,0:12:35.490
client-side filters and and that

0:12:33.000,0:12:37.620
improves the privacy of this interaction

0:12:35.490,0:12:40.470
very much because in the usual bloom

0:12:37.620,0:12:43.350
filter model the privacy of the user was

0:12:40.470,0:12:45.150
very very bad because you have to ask to

0:12:43.350,0:12:48.300
other full nodes that you don't know any

0:12:45.150,0:12:49.080
kind of information about your your

0:12:48.300,0:12:51.150
transaction

0:12:49.080,0:12:53.910
so these full nodes that you don't know

0:12:51.150,0:12:56.670
they will know everything about your UT

0:12:53.910,0:12:58.710
Exocet and such of course you can

0:12:56.670,0:13:02.880
mitigate this for example with the fake

0:12:58.710,0:13:06.750
positives with with basically false

0:13:02.880,0:13:09.900
flags but after a while it's very easy

0:13:06.750,0:13:13.050
to then to basically to reduce your

0:13:09.900,0:13:15.150
privacy with bloom filters with neutrino

0:13:13.050,0:13:19.170
privacy is way better so in a way

0:13:15.150,0:13:21.180
neutrino is a is a better version of my

0:13:19.170,0:13:22.650
current original idea which is the

0:13:21.180,0:13:25.950
profit is the problem the problem is

0:13:22.650,0:13:29.940
that being better it is also worse

0:13:25.950,0:13:33.620
because it could incentivize even more

0:13:29.940,0:13:36.150
the the use of this practice over the

0:13:33.620,0:13:38.760
over the use of full nodes let's

0:13:36.150,0:13:40.430
consider then there are a lot of people

0:13:38.760,0:13:44.120
that I know directly

0:13:40.430,0:13:47.290
that never really decided to run a full

0:13:44.120,0:13:51.200
order so because running a full node

0:13:47.290,0:13:53.210
requires that you have a hardware always

0:13:51.200,0:13:55.040
connected at your home which is

0:13:53.210,0:13:57.770
something that was trivial for people

0:13:55.040,0:14:00.140
ten years ago but right now many people

0:13:57.770,0:14:01.670
even professional professionals and

0:14:00.140,0:14:04.340
technical people with the technical

0:14:01.670,0:14:06.170
mindset many of them they don't have a

0:14:04.340,0:14:08.930
server running at home they're just

0:14:06.170,0:14:11.000
using the cloud computing party and

0:14:08.930,0:14:14.390
they're using cell phones and they are

0:14:11.000,0:14:16.880
actually not running any server so there

0:14:14.390,0:14:20.720
is like a psychological barrier to start

0:14:16.880,0:14:23.600
acquiring some raspberry or some odd

0:14:20.720,0:14:25.820
roid or or a server to keep to keep

0:14:23.600,0:14:27.890
running home and then is studying your

0:14:25.820,0:14:30.200
full node on your server there's like a

0:14:27.890,0:14:33.140
very huge barrier so many people I know

0:14:30.200,0:14:35.150
directly we're starting to they

0:14:33.140,0:14:38.390
understood the importance of full node

0:14:35.150,0:14:40.130
but they were actually procrastinating

0:14:38.390,0:14:42.320
and procrastinating and procrastinating

0:14:40.130,0:14:44.570
and now they they are starting to run

0:14:42.320,0:14:46.940
full nodes because of lighting Network

0:14:44.570,0:14:49.310
because the way the lighting network

0:14:46.940,0:14:52.370
works is that mostly you need to run a

0:14:49.310,0:14:55.160
full node in order to to to receive

0:14:52.370,0:14:58.480
money and to secure your money in in

0:14:55.160,0:15:01.640
channels because if you just use a

0:14:58.480,0:15:04.160
smartphone you maybe can use a model

0:15:01.640,0:15:06.830
like the one of very clear but you can

0:15:04.160,0:15:08.660
only send money not receive if you want

0:15:06.830,0:15:10.490
to receive money and if you want to

0:15:08.660,0:15:13.100
secure the money in in receiving

0:15:10.490,0:15:15.140
channels you need a full node so many

0:15:13.100,0:15:16.910
people that didn't didn't know that

0:15:15.140,0:15:19.340
wasn't running full node one year ago

0:15:16.910,0:15:21.410
are starting to run full nodes or and

0:15:19.340,0:15:23.930
now the problems that neutrino as a

0:15:21.410,0:15:26.510
proposal is targeting specifically

0:15:23.930,0:15:30.320
lighting network users with the with the

0:15:26.510,0:15:34.340
idea that finally you will be able to to

0:15:30.320,0:15:37.250
use a litel network wallet without your

0:15:34.340,0:15:39.560
own full node because it was impossible

0:15:37.250,0:15:42.110
with the normal bloom filter and also it

0:15:39.560,0:15:43.970
was very bad for privacy privacy but now

0:15:42.110,0:15:46.130
with neutrino it will be better for your

0:15:43.970,0:15:49.140
privacy and more efficient and many

0:15:46.130,0:15:50.790
other things and so finally you can you

0:15:49.140,0:15:54.149
there are two nettle without your full

0:15:50.790,0:15:57.779
note which I argue is a very bad let's

0:15:54.149,0:16:02.130
say it's a very bad priority setting to

0:15:57.779,0:16:06.060
help people not having full notes before

0:16:02.130,0:16:08.730
we finish helping people to to run a

0:16:06.060,0:16:12.209
12-4 notes so you will you will speak

0:16:08.730,0:16:14.490
with care peers not Launcher actually is

0:16:12.209,0:16:17.610
a very good implementation in my opinion

0:16:14.490,0:16:19.769
because the preparer will explain what

0:16:17.610,0:16:23.220
it does better than me but basically

0:16:19.769,0:16:26.670
what the nod nod launcher does is it

0:16:23.220,0:16:31.440
uses neutrino to to trust a minor

0:16:26.670,0:16:34.079
majority only for a while in in the

0:16:31.440,0:16:36.570
meanwhile it basically synchronized the

0:16:34.079,0:16:37.890
note from scratch and when did the note

0:16:36.570,0:16:40.440
is fully in sync

0:16:37.890,0:16:44.130
it stops trusting miners and it gets

0:16:40.440,0:16:47.490
back validating everything independently

0:16:44.130,0:16:49.649
so the model of of Peirce and not

0:16:47.490,0:16:52.250
launcher is very very good it's not a

0:16:49.649,0:16:55.410
bad model at all but the problem is that

0:16:52.250,0:16:59.510
Pierre is proposing to have all the

0:16:55.410,0:17:02.519
Bitcoin core notes as a default serving

0:16:59.510,0:17:05.669
neutrino client-side filtering and that

0:17:02.519,0:17:08.370
means that while the model of Pierre is

0:17:05.669,0:17:11.189
very very good other people that may

0:17:08.370,0:17:13.260
create Wallace which are which following

0:17:11.189,0:17:15.689
others that are very very bad just like

0:17:13.260,0:17:18.480
the bloom filter they can use the same

0:17:15.689,0:17:21.449
feature to promote this that as a fake

0:17:18.480,0:17:23.520
as fake security where as a security

0:17:21.449,0:17:26.579
circles in which people think they are

0:17:23.520,0:17:28.559
validating with SPV but actually they

0:17:26.579,0:17:31.200
are not validate you are just trusting

0:17:28.559,0:17:36.360
their completely for everything the

0:17:31.200,0:17:39.570
majority of the ash power the the Rondo

0:17:36.360,0:17:42.390
majority of miners there are two

0:17:39.570,0:17:44.910
consideration that usually people people

0:17:42.390,0:17:46.620
make or maybe three consideration the

0:17:44.910,0:17:49.110
first one which I would like to dismiss

0:17:46.620,0:17:51.870
completely it's that well you know it's

0:17:49.110,0:17:53.490
open source it's permissionless so if

0:17:51.870,0:17:55.309
you don't like it don't use it but we

0:17:53.490,0:17:57.980
will implement it in core anyway

0:17:55.309,0:18:00.889
because because it's open source but

0:17:57.980,0:18:02.779
that's not an argument Bitcoin core that

0:18:00.889,0:18:04.879
doesn't have the application to include

0:18:02.779,0:18:07.879
any possible feature because it's open

0:18:04.879,0:18:11.809
source we should be concurrence or is

0:18:07.879,0:18:13.700
already a little bit feature creep I

0:18:11.809,0:18:16.669
would say there is too much stuff in

0:18:13.700,0:18:18.710
beacon core so adding more stuff is not

0:18:16.669,0:18:20.779
it's not actually the best that the best

0:18:18.710,0:18:23.210
thing to do right now especially if it

0:18:20.779,0:18:26.480
is controversial the second argument is

0:18:23.210,0:18:28.700
that the only alternative to this kind

0:18:26.480,0:18:31.549
of stop neutrino will be custodian

0:18:28.700,0:18:33.710
wallet so people instead of using light

0:18:31.549,0:18:36.110
in network they just use a service in

0:18:33.710,0:18:39.889
which other people use like a network on

0:18:36.110,0:18:42.830
their behalf just like tip tip not me or

0:18:39.889,0:18:44.629
or a blue wallet or bullets office of

0:18:42.830,0:18:46.549
Satoshi there are this kind of wallets

0:18:44.629,0:18:49.070
which you think you're using like a

0:18:46.549,0:18:50.240
network but you are just delegating

0:18:49.070,0:18:52.249
other people to use the lighter

0:18:50.240,0:18:55.879
networking on your pay alpha with your

0:18:52.249,0:18:59.080
money so which is worse it's interesting

0:18:55.879,0:19:02.690
because I will definitely argue that the

0:18:59.080,0:19:06.080
the former is war it's worse than the

0:19:02.690,0:19:08.869
latter because when you trust some

0:19:06.080,0:19:11.600
company for a custodian wallet at least

0:19:08.869,0:19:14.330
you you know or you should know that you

0:19:11.600,0:19:18.399
are trusting somebody specific well when

0:19:14.330,0:19:21.230
you are trusting the money majority the

0:19:18.399,0:19:23.960
temporary money majority like with a

0:19:21.230,0:19:25.820
bloom filter or neutrino you don't know

0:19:23.960,0:19:28.039
who you are trusting maybe you think

0:19:25.820,0:19:30.230
you're trusting to centralize the

0:19:28.039,0:19:32.690
competitive environment but that worry

0:19:30.230,0:19:34.940
you are trusting a Nash rate cartel like

0:19:32.690,0:19:37.340
big main or something even worse than

0:19:34.940,0:19:39.590
between in the future so there are some

0:19:37.340,0:19:43.369
points that made it will make you argue

0:19:39.590,0:19:47.899
that instead of merging neutrino instead

0:19:43.369,0:19:50.840
of of of the current bloom filter

0:19:47.899,0:19:54.230
implementation we should just we should

0:19:50.840,0:19:55.639
just turn off by default this kind of I

0:19:54.230,0:19:58.909
mean merge a neutrino

0:19:55.639,0:20:00.050
instead of my current filter but merge

0:19:58.909,0:20:02.840
it

0:20:00.050,0:20:05.060
off by default and all the people that

0:20:02.840,0:20:07.970
knows what they are doing they can use

0:20:05.060,0:20:11.390
these these this thing in order to maybe

0:20:07.970,0:20:14.600
gather better better security over a

0:20:11.390,0:20:17.840
trusted node so the things that imagine

0:20:14.600,0:20:19.940
when use mycelium wallet when use

0:20:17.840,0:20:22.670
mycelium what you do is actually

0:20:19.940,0:20:24.800
trusting mycelium server for validation

0:20:22.670,0:20:26.660
you don't trust them with your private

0:20:24.800,0:20:28.880
keys but you trust them with the

0:20:26.660,0:20:31.040
validation of the roots of Bitcoin but a

0:20:28.880,0:20:34.160
twist you know that there is somebody

0:20:31.040,0:20:36.400
liable so if neutrinos screws up there

0:20:34.160,0:20:40.330
is there is a strong reputational

0:20:36.400,0:20:43.700
feedback mechanism against against

0:20:40.330,0:20:46.220
mycelium and that is not the case when

0:20:43.700,0:20:47.780
you just trust the mining majority in

0:20:46.220,0:20:48.440
that case there is perfect classical

0:20:47.780,0:20:51.050
deniability

0:20:48.440,0:20:55.270
there is nobody which loses reputation

0:20:51.050,0:20:57.980
if the majority of ash rate just follows

0:20:55.270,0:21:01.130
invalid rules and serves you with

0:20:57.980,0:21:04.400
invalid rules so it's a very complex

0:21:01.130,0:21:06.500
point I really hear the arguments of the

0:21:04.400,0:21:09.200
other sides neutrino is a great

0:21:06.500,0:21:11.330
technology is a great idea but what

0:21:09.200,0:21:14.060
would be great would have to have

0:21:11.330,0:21:16.970
neutrino as a way to check against a

0:21:14.060,0:21:20.210
known server so if you if you trust

0:21:16.970,0:21:22.070
mycelium for validation but then you

0:21:20.210,0:21:25.340
should check that the majority of their

0:21:22.070,0:21:28.220
power is also including the same

0:21:25.340,0:21:30.290
transaction than mycelium then that's a

0:21:28.220,0:21:33.080
that's a good thing because you are a

0:21:30.290,0:21:35.840
you're creating additional security so

0:21:33.080,0:21:37.760
you're trusting a neutrino sorry you are

0:21:35.840,0:21:40.490
trusting mycelium but you are using

0:21:37.760,0:21:43.160
neutrino in order to add security but if

0:21:40.490,0:21:45.650
you just replace mycelium server with

0:21:43.160,0:21:48.050
the majority of ash rate that's actually

0:21:45.650,0:21:50.810
a degradation of your security model and

0:21:48.050,0:21:53.600
it's systemically very very risky as we

0:21:50.810,0:21:55.610
as we have seen with the 2x attack so

0:21:53.600,0:21:57.830
I've been quite long but I hope that I

0:21:55.610,0:22:01.700
managed to explain my position little

0:21:57.830,0:22:05.150
bit and consistently if I can summarize

0:22:01.700,0:22:06.950
in very simple terms lightning right now

0:22:05.150,0:22:09.380
is the best thing that has happened to

0:22:06.950,0:22:11.780
the Bitcoin network security just

0:22:09.380,0:22:13.620
because more people are pushed to run

0:22:11.780,0:22:17.730
their own nodes just to be able to

0:22:13.620,0:22:20.490
lightning and if we promote the IP 157

0:22:17.730,0:22:22.230
not only that we are reducing the

0:22:20.490,0:22:24.570
incentive for people to run their fold

0:22:22.230,0:22:27.240
node in order to have access to

0:22:24.570,0:22:29.460
lightning but we also open the gates to

0:22:27.240,0:22:32.220
game theory scenarios that might

0:22:29.460,0:22:35.220
actually empower miners much more than

0:22:32.220,0:22:37.800
we should be am I getting it right up to

0:22:35.220,0:22:40.170
this point absolutely right that's

0:22:37.800,0:22:43.050
access point which doesn't mean that

0:22:40.170,0:22:48.270
everything in VIP one five eight seven

0:22:43.050,0:22:51.360
is runs this same risk actually the same

0:22:48.270,0:22:54.360
thing in VIP 137 use it in another way

0:22:51.360,0:22:56.760
in a slightly different narrative will

0:22:54.360,0:22:59.550
be actually beneficial so if it was

0:22:56.760,0:23:02.880
promoted as a way to check against some

0:22:59.550,0:23:05.850
kinds of trusted trusted server it would

0:23:02.880,0:23:08.160
be not heartful at all and maybe even

0:23:05.850,0:23:10.770
helpful but the problem is just a

0:23:08.160,0:23:13.260
narrative people is pushing around the

0:23:10.770,0:23:15.600
narrative that with neutrino you don't

0:23:13.260,0:23:18.420
need your full node anymore in order to

0:23:15.600,0:23:20.429
run light network so you are perfectly

0:23:18.420,0:23:22.679
right what could be the best thing to

0:23:20.429,0:23:26.370
happen to Bitcoin I don't know if you

0:23:22.679,0:23:28.110
remember but since I since I think 2014

0:23:26.370,0:23:31.410
or or something like that

0:23:28.110,0:23:35.280
people were writing everywhere we should

0:23:31.410,0:23:38.690
have a way to monetize validating full

0:23:35.280,0:23:42.600
node because right now miners are

0:23:38.690,0:23:44.250
rewarded but full nodes for not runners

0:23:42.600,0:23:46.740
are not rewarded at all

0:23:44.250,0:23:49.559
so we should invent some some mechanism

0:23:46.740,0:23:51.900
to reward full nodes well-liked network

0:23:49.559,0:23:53.580
surprisingly is very similar to such a

0:23:51.900,0:23:55.650
mechanism with light and after you

0:23:53.580,0:23:58.800
incentivize people to run full node

0:23:55.650,0:24:02.400
because the only alternative is just to

0:23:58.800,0:24:06.840
use a custodian so yeah neutrino if

0:24:02.400,0:24:09.480
promoted and if perceived and if used as

0:24:06.840,0:24:13.290
a way to avoid running full nodes could

0:24:09.480,0:24:15.179
be even could be harmful to to Bitcoin

0:24:13.290,0:24:17.710
actually which doesn't mean that the

0:24:15.179,0:24:22.029
technology is not great and

0:24:17.710,0:24:24.210
and and it couldn't be useful if used in

0:24:22.029,0:24:26.559
the right way

0:24:24.210,0:24:28.690
yeah I didn't give it too much thought

0:24:26.559,0:24:32.860
up to this point I just saw some

0:24:28.690,0:24:35.110
discussions and I think the the biggest

0:24:32.860,0:24:38.679
critic that I saw on Twitter was woody

0:24:35.110,0:24:41.140
Burt himer and he was very skeptical of

0:24:38.679,0:24:43.029
the idea and I guess it's normal to be

0:24:41.140,0:24:47.890
conservative when it comes to something

0:24:43.029,0:24:49.990
like Bitcoin core which even modified to

0:24:47.890,0:24:52.659
the slightest extent can lead to

0:24:49.990,0:24:55.360
unforeseen consequences and we should

0:24:52.659,0:24:58.390
not just rush to good ideas and say oh

0:24:55.360,0:25:02.049
this is so great because that's what

0:24:58.390,0:25:04.149
alkynes do and I remember I don't know

0:25:02.049,0:25:07.120
who told me I don't follow Virge the

0:25:04.149,0:25:11.890
project but their league developer has

0:25:07.120,0:25:15.159
pasted the code sequence in their client

0:25:11.890,0:25:18.909
and he unwillingly forked the whole

0:25:15.159,0:25:21.370
system so he created a fork just because

0:25:18.909,0:25:23.620
he was lazy and he copied and pasted a

0:25:21.370,0:25:26.799
sequence of code and he did something

0:25:23.620,0:25:30.340
wrong in the process and it led to a

0:25:26.799,0:25:32.320
hard fork which is insane and that's not

0:25:30.340,0:25:35.890
yeah that should ever happen to Bitcoin

0:25:32.320,0:25:38.320
we should consider everything absolutely

0:25:35.890,0:25:41.200
we shouldn't rush anything into Bitcoin

0:25:38.320,0:25:43.299
and we shouldn't add too many things to

0:25:41.200,0:25:45.460
Bitcoin core also because the problem

0:25:43.299,0:25:47.289
would be to encourage that it is a

0:25:45.460,0:25:49.750
referent implementation that somehow

0:25:47.289,0:25:52.510
defines the protocol because we don't

0:25:49.750,0:25:54.850
have a formal protocol for Bitcoin there

0:25:52.510,0:25:57.549
is somebody like Peter Todd who argue

0:25:54.850,0:26:00.100
that we cannot really have a formal

0:25:57.549,0:26:02.860
protocol for many many reasons so right

0:26:00.100,0:26:05.140
now it's a it's a good thing to a

0:26:02.860,0:26:07.720
different presentation of bullets

0:26:05.140,0:26:10.840
current selection fee estimation

0:26:07.720,0:26:14.020
signature systems and so on and so on

0:26:10.840,0:26:16.179
but if you think about the the consensus

0:26:14.020,0:26:18.340
part is not a good idea to have

0:26:16.179,0:26:20.380
different presentation because if you

0:26:18.340,0:26:23.600
have divergence in different

0:26:20.380,0:26:26.030
representation what you want is not that

0:26:23.600,0:26:28.789
system goes on what you want is actually

0:26:26.030,0:26:30.620
that that everybody stops for a while I

0:26:28.789,0:26:32.660
mean it's better to have a Fault in the

0:26:30.620,0:26:35.179
system that to have a spirit in the

0:26:32.660,0:26:37.309
system when you talk about consensus so

0:26:35.179,0:26:40.580
there was a lot of effort to reduce

0:26:37.309,0:26:42.950
Bitcoin core to the bare mean that you

0:26:40.580,0:26:47.450
need in order to perform a validation

0:26:42.950,0:26:51.530
following bitcoins rules and there was

0:26:47.450,0:26:53.390
the the liberal consensus effort leaf

0:26:51.530,0:26:56.150
consensus was the idea to have a library

0:26:53.390,0:26:58.309
to turn which can color into a single

0:26:56.150,0:26:59.809
library about bitcoin consensus of

0:26:58.309,0:27:02.650
course that's a very difficult thing to

0:26:59.809,0:27:06.289
do because kind of everything is

0:27:02.650,0:27:08.960
consensus even the dimension of the

0:27:06.289,0:27:12.380
database the blocks you are using

0:27:08.960,0:27:17.270
somehow can influence consensus so much

0:27:12.380,0:27:20.480
that there was a a an accidental fork in

0:27:17.270,0:27:23.360
Bitcoin an accidental split because

0:27:20.480,0:27:27.320
there was a change in the database bear

0:27:23.360,0:27:28.850
craze Bursa leveldb so so it's difficult

0:27:27.320,0:27:31.940
to do that but we concur should be

0:27:28.850,0:27:34.159
reduced not really expand with many many

0:27:31.940,0:27:36.590
feature and then there is this this game

0:27:34.159,0:27:39.020
the reticle consideration I would say

0:27:36.590,0:27:41.750
that the main critics are not just OD

0:27:39.020,0:27:44.059
but also and not that they appeal to

0:27:41.750,0:27:46.789
Authority means anything but just to

0:27:44.059,0:27:49.159
just for a sake of completeness the main

0:27:46.789,0:27:53.390
critics are also Nikola Duryea he wrote

0:27:49.159,0:27:55.730
an article about neutrino promoting this

0:27:53.390,0:27:58.070
kind of skeptics and Peter Todd

0:27:55.730,0:28:00.799
expresses the same sketched skepticism

0:27:58.070,0:28:03.260
where we were discussing neutrino during

0:28:00.799,0:28:06.380
the unconscious capable conferences a

0:28:03.260,0:28:09.409
few a few weeks ago and the other one is

0:28:06.380,0:28:13.820
nuke - here we is also very vocal about

0:28:09.409,0:28:16.850
the risks of these of the choice yeah

0:28:13.820,0:28:19.549
and I guess if we get to the area of

0:28:16.850,0:28:21.770
multiple clients running the same

0:28:19.549,0:28:23.870
protocol and having different developers

0:28:21.770,0:28:26.330
working on each client I guess that's

0:28:23.870,0:28:27.980
what bitcoin kasher is the experimenting

0:28:26.330,0:28:29.929
with right now and they brag about

0:28:27.980,0:28:32.299
having multiple clients and stuff like

0:28:29.929,0:28:34.429
that but it's going to be interesting to

0:28:32.299,0:28:37.130
see as an experiment how long it takes

0:28:34.429,0:28:39.440
until just one sequence of

0:28:37.130,0:28:45.050
that was wrong and they hard for it

0:28:39.440,0:28:47.270
without even being aware of it yeah we

0:28:45.050,0:28:53.560
also had a very clear example in a

0:28:47.270,0:28:56.150
theorem with parity and and and get

0:28:53.560,0:28:58.580
diverging about some validation rules

0:28:56.150,0:29:00.860
and of course a theorem is supposed to

0:28:58.580,0:29:01.910
have a formal specification but the

0:29:00.860,0:29:05.330
point is that the formal specification

0:29:01.910,0:29:07.460
was not really addressing that kind of

0:29:05.330,0:29:09.650
disagreement between between parity and

0:29:07.460,0:29:12.290
death and so what the developers had to

0:29:09.650,0:29:15.920
do was basically to to communicate

0:29:12.290,0:29:18.020
especially and to choose one version

0:29:15.920,0:29:20.450
over the other which is something that

0:29:18.020,0:29:23.090
especially at the beginning of a project

0:29:20.450,0:29:26.300
can be done with a few friction and

0:29:23.090,0:29:28.400
without without huge risks of

0:29:26.300,0:29:30.710
centralization for example in Bitcoin

0:29:28.400,0:29:37.000
when there was the level to be versus

0:29:30.710,0:29:40.820
battery DB mess up we had developers

0:29:37.000,0:29:43.250
speaking with miners asking them to let

0:29:40.820,0:29:45.320
the invalid chain go in order to remain

0:29:43.250,0:29:47.750
on the same change so at the beginning

0:29:45.320,0:29:51.350
of a project that kind of coordination

0:29:47.750,0:29:53.990
level can happen but in the long run we

0:29:51.350,0:29:56.450
cannot absolutely rely on that kind of

0:29:53.990,0:30:00.140
coordination imagine Bitcoin being a

0:29:56.450,0:30:04.150
natural infrastructure moving a good

0:30:00.140,0:30:07.190
percentage of the dis planets wealth

0:30:04.150,0:30:09.140
since years and years with some kind of

0:30:07.190,0:30:10.880
well-established rule then you have some

0:30:09.140,0:30:13.790
kind of incompatibility between a

0:30:10.880,0:30:16.550
different version of validity and and

0:30:13.790,0:30:19.130
then you just have what thousands and

0:30:16.550,0:30:22.460
thousands of former and current between

0:30:19.130,0:30:24.920
developers discussing between among them

0:30:22.460,0:30:27.140
about which version to choose that's

0:30:24.920,0:30:29.030
very dangerous because either they

0:30:27.140,0:30:31.670
cannot coordinate and then you have an

0:30:29.030,0:30:33.890
accidental split or even worse they can

0:30:31.670,0:30:35.480
coordinate easily and if they can

0:30:33.890,0:30:38.270
coordinate easily that means that they

0:30:35.480,0:30:40.520
are a giant attack surface because then

0:30:38.270,0:30:43.370
government knows that that group of

0:30:40.520,0:30:45.770
developers is easy to coordinate and so

0:30:43.370,0:30:46.750
it could be also easy to force or to

0:30:45.770,0:30:50.170
blackmail

0:30:46.750,0:30:54.610
or to or to buy or to buy off or stuff

0:30:50.170,0:30:57.640
like that yeah it's always delicate with

0:30:54.610,0:31:01.300
this Bitcoin client that we're trying to

0:30:57.640,0:31:03.580
keep as pure as possible I don't think

0:31:01.300,0:31:05.920
there is any easy way to govern it

0:31:03.580,0:31:08.380
I think definitely that there should be

0:31:05.920,0:31:10.330
more developers getting interested in it

0:31:08.380,0:31:12.520
and discovering the technology and I

0:31:10.330,0:31:15.880
appreciate the work of people like I

0:31:12.520,0:31:19.590
think Jimmy song is doing this kind of

0:31:15.880,0:31:22.390
workshop to help people get interested

0:31:19.590,0:31:26.080
from a developer's perspective and

0:31:22.390,0:31:26.590
coding for Bitcoin and it also blows my

0:31:26.080,0:31:29.350
mind

0:31:26.590,0:31:31.840
I'm diverging here but it was my mind

0:31:29.350,0:31:34.360
when I see that projects like wasabi

0:31:31.840,0:31:36.850
wallet don't have proper funding even

0:31:34.360,0:31:38.650
though they are very useful objectively

0:31:36.850,0:31:42.520
speaking they increase the fungibility

0:31:38.650,0:31:45.280
of different outputs you can have coins

0:31:42.520,0:31:47.650
from maybe sell crowd and there was that

0:31:45.280,0:31:51.910
word mined last week and they get mixed

0:31:47.650,0:31:54.940
together in a way that nobody can reject

0:31:51.910,0:31:56.950
them which is very good very useful for

0:31:54.940,0:31:59.740
a Bitcoin you don't really have user

0:31:56.950,0:32:02.350
friendly wallets unless they are

0:31:59.740,0:32:05.620
custodial or they belong to some kind of

0:32:02.350,0:32:07.330
big company like coinbase which spends a

0:32:05.620,0:32:11.590
lot of money trying to make it friendly

0:32:07.330,0:32:13.690
so it's difficult in this decentralized

0:32:11.590,0:32:15.640
economy just because people are not

0:32:13.690,0:32:18.040
willing to invest in something that they

0:32:15.640,0:32:20.040
don't control you have companies that

0:32:18.040,0:32:23.740
want to have the best product of

0:32:20.040,0:32:26.560
everything available and when you have a

0:32:23.740,0:32:30.700
great initiative that actually changes

0:32:26.560,0:32:32.710
something and maybe is useful for the

0:32:30.700,0:32:34.840
entire space you're you're going to see

0:32:32.710,0:32:36.460
them struggle and you even see that kind

0:32:34.840,0:32:39.520
of situation with Bitcoin core

0:32:36.460,0:32:41.530
developers who rely on donations just to

0:32:39.520,0:32:46.060
be able to break even at the end of the

0:32:41.530,0:32:47.410
month so yeah yeah you you think of

0:32:46.060,0:32:51.580
people like Barry Silbert

0:32:47.410,0:32:53.710
who made a fortune just by investing in

0:32:51.580,0:32:57.160
Bitcoin and he isn't spending anything

0:32:53.710,0:32:59.370
as far as I know he doesn't directly

0:32:57.160,0:33:01.350
fund the developers of

0:32:59.370,0:33:03.680
Bitcoin which made him millions of

0:33:01.350,0:33:03.680
dollars

0:33:03.870,0:33:09.880
so at the beginning of your introduction

0:33:07.450,0:33:12.850
or they or the chat with me you

0:33:09.880,0:33:16.120
mentioned again my my effort with the

0:33:12.850,0:33:19.840
beer that we presented in September at

0:33:16.120,0:33:22.780
this point five months ago and the line

0:33:19.840,0:33:25.059
of thoughts that that brand that brought

0:33:22.780,0:33:28.059
me and other people to launch this

0:33:25.059,0:33:30.250
initiative was exactly this monetizing

0:33:28.059,0:33:33.220
good projects in Bitcoin is kind of

0:33:30.250,0:33:34.920
difficult because I mean in general in

0:33:33.220,0:33:37.929
the open sold in the free open source

0:33:34.920,0:33:40.510
sector monetization is not trivial

0:33:37.929,0:33:44.050
because sure you can have one initiative

0:33:40.510,0:33:47.590
Mike redhot in which you basically you

0:33:44.050,0:33:50.110
use your humor ceremony to help for

0:33:47.590,0:33:52.660
everybody the free open standard like

0:33:50.110,0:33:56.380
Linux kernel and then you offer some

0:33:52.660,0:33:58.870
kind of services on top when the leaves

0:33:56.380,0:34:02.200
kernel is everywhere liking like it like

0:33:58.870,0:34:04.470
now on in servers or or whatever then

0:34:02.200,0:34:09.369
you can offer some kind of customization

0:34:04.470,0:34:12.369
support especially b2b on top so this

0:34:09.369,0:34:14.260
model this model works kind of works but

0:34:12.369,0:34:17.020
is it doesn't work in an obvious way

0:34:14.260,0:34:19.210
it's kind of difficult to to establish

0:34:17.020,0:34:23.280
and with Bitcoin is the same and is even

0:34:19.210,0:34:25.119
worse because the the best kind of

0:34:23.280,0:34:27.669
application in which currently don't

0:34:25.119,0:34:31.450
need any kind and they cannot have any

0:34:27.669,0:34:33.669
kind of relevant central counterparty

0:34:31.450,0:34:35.800
otherwise it becomes more fragile for

0:34:33.669,0:34:38.800
example the example that I always make

0:34:35.800,0:34:42.700
is the example of a Bitcoin wallet you

0:34:38.800,0:34:44.830
cannot you have a startup that does that

0:34:42.700,0:34:48.460
that makes a good Bitcoin wallet so

0:34:44.830,0:34:51.250
startups usually thrive on on patents

0:34:48.460,0:34:53.320
and copyright and intellectual and

0:34:51.250,0:34:55.090
so-called intellectual property and you

0:34:53.320,0:34:57.910
cannot do that in Bitcoin because it's

0:34:55.090,0:35:00.730
it's against bitcoins ito but it's also

0:34:57.910,0:35:03.640
against the best interest of peer review

0:35:00.730,0:35:07.030
and security review I mean it's a

0:35:03.640,0:35:09.730
completely unsecured to use a world in

0:35:07.030,0:35:13.630
which you don't have a weather

0:35:09.730,0:35:15.339
an open source code so you cannot you

0:35:13.630,0:35:18.250
cannot monetize on intellectual property

0:35:15.339,0:35:21.609
so-called intellectual property then you

0:35:18.250,0:35:23.740
cannot really ask for fees or put

0:35:21.609,0:35:25.930
advertising banners in your wallet

0:35:23.740,0:35:28.240
because if you do that and you monetize

0:35:25.930,0:35:31.420
aggressively people will just create

0:35:28.240,0:35:34.329
your widget fork your open-source code

0:35:31.420,0:35:39.070
and create another wallet which get-get

0:35:34.329,0:35:41.680
which gets rid of the of the fees or of

0:35:39.070,0:35:43.329
the partners or just hijack the fees and

0:35:41.680,0:35:46.270
and the banners then the third

0:35:43.329,0:35:48.730
monetization model is user privacy user

0:35:46.270,0:35:52.000
private data so you can have a you can

0:35:48.730,0:35:54.460
be Facebook or Google so basically you

0:35:52.000,0:35:56.380
you don't want to ties aggressively at

0:35:54.460,0:35:58.359
least at the beginning but you collect

0:35:56.380,0:36:01.060
user data but it could become well it

0:35:58.359,0:36:03.280
cannot connect collect user data because

0:36:01.060,0:36:05.500
that the best that the best become worth

0:36:03.280,0:36:07.270
of or Bitcoin software in general is the

0:36:05.500,0:36:09.250
software that respects the privacy of

0:36:07.270,0:36:11.829
the users in the first place so it's

0:36:09.250,0:36:15.130
very difficult to monetize and and

0:36:11.829,0:36:19.089
you're right that we have people making

0:36:15.130,0:36:21.490
a lot of money in a few kind of in very

0:36:19.089,0:36:23.950
few sectors like exchanges for example

0:36:21.490,0:36:25.660
and these entities they usually don't

0:36:23.950,0:36:27.910
give back much to the open-source

0:36:25.660,0:36:30.280
community so far so it's it's kind of

0:36:27.910,0:36:32.470
sad to see that you mention it wasabi

0:36:30.280,0:36:34.960
it's crazy that something as important

0:36:32.470,0:36:36.849
as wasabi has problems to to fund

0:36:34.960,0:36:39.160
developers it's also crazy that

0:36:36.849,0:36:41.910
something as important as be TCP server

0:36:39.160,0:36:45.040
as problem to fund the developers

0:36:41.910,0:36:48.460
something like the liberal initiative to

0:36:45.040,0:36:51.819
create an open-source library for

0:36:48.460,0:36:53.859
Bitcoin something like a beak or made by

0:36:51.819,0:36:57.460
Lawrence now which is a way to run your

0:36:53.859,0:37:00.790
own full validating Bitcoin core node on

0:36:57.460,0:37:04.400
your android smart TV or or cell phone

0:37:00.790,0:37:06.469
such a very important project or again

0:37:04.400,0:37:09.940
the consensus that we mentioned before

0:37:06.469,0:37:13.999
or procedures that offer to do saved

0:37:09.940,0:37:16.489
romantic storage all this stuff there is

0:37:13.999,0:37:19.249
no money to fund it which is which is

0:37:16.489,0:37:22.309
kind of sad and problematic

0:37:19.249,0:37:25.190
so the initiative was created exactly in

0:37:22.309,0:37:27.890
order to try to if not solve at least

0:37:25.190,0:37:30.410
mitigate this problem I have to say that

0:37:27.890,0:37:33.229
after five months of effort since the

0:37:30.410,0:37:36.319
presentation in Riga we are finding a

0:37:33.229,0:37:38.809
lot of dear serious legal problems to

0:37:36.319,0:37:41.960
run something like like the B I will

0:37:38.809,0:37:44.059
will probably come around this problems

0:37:41.960,0:37:47.599
but just to explain you what I'm talking

0:37:44.059,0:37:51.920
about so well now the alcohol is to

0:37:47.599,0:37:55.130
accept donation from established legal

0:37:51.920,0:37:58.219
entities like I don't know an exchange

0:37:55.130,0:38:01.729
or or a core ABC company or or whatever

0:37:58.219,0:38:06.229
or a financial incumbent so these are

0:38:01.729,0:38:08.509
these incorporated legal entity has to

0:38:06.229,0:38:10.999
give money to the foundation and the

0:38:08.509,0:38:13.640
foundation has to do basically bounties

0:38:10.999,0:38:15.650
for developers that will do something

0:38:13.640,0:38:18.499
important to the ecosystem so for

0:38:15.650,0:38:22.999
example whoever helps wasabi or

0:38:18.499,0:38:26.420
participate or or leave early or the

0:38:22.999,0:38:29.239
consensus or the declasse protocol or

0:38:26.420,0:38:32.150
whatever they are open tense times they

0:38:29.239,0:38:34.940
get this Bitcoin from the foundation as

0:38:32.150,0:38:38.690
a reward as a bounty the problem is that

0:38:34.940,0:38:42.380
what lawyers told us after the the first

0:38:38.690,0:38:45.200
months of optimism was that basically we

0:38:42.380,0:38:47.809
should as well as a foundation we would

0:38:45.200,0:38:51.140
have the obligation to kyc completely

0:38:47.809,0:38:53.719
the developers because in theory let's

0:38:51.140,0:38:57.410
assume that you have the company a lease

0:38:53.719,0:39:02.749
that donates 1 million dollars for the

0:38:57.410,0:39:06.380
development of no open 10 stamps or or

0:39:02.749,0:39:09.829
liberally library so now you have the

0:39:06.380,0:39:12.589
foundation giving 1 million dollars to

0:39:09.829,0:39:13.400
these key table users that they said

0:39:12.589,0:39:17.239
almost

0:39:13.400,0:39:21.109
or or not so don't husband anyway the

0:39:17.239,0:39:23.930
non kyc developers developing for for

0:39:21.109,0:39:26.119
dis libraries but what if it turns out

0:39:23.930,0:39:29.680
that was just a way for the company

0:39:26.119,0:39:33.700
Alice to pay the employer-employee Bob

0:39:29.680,0:39:36.890
while while avoiding Social Security

0:39:33.700,0:39:38.569
taxes and other forms of Taxation so as

0:39:36.890,0:39:41.869
you can see that that's kind of tricky

0:39:38.569,0:39:44.269
and while in some during September the

0:39:41.869,0:39:46.489
lawyers who were in contact with elitist

0:39:44.269,0:39:49.430
and were very optimistic about this it

0:39:46.489,0:39:52.219
turned out that is very difficult to to

0:39:49.430,0:39:57.799
be able to do together

0:39:52.219,0:40:01.279
donation from legal parties and to to

0:39:57.799,0:40:03.349
give this donation to non kyc entities

0:40:01.279,0:40:05.779
and of course I don't want to spend my

0:40:03.349,0:40:08.089
time doing kyc of developers of Bitcoin

0:40:05.779,0:40:10.069
I even think that the the best

0:40:08.089,0:40:12.019
configuration would be one in which the

0:40:10.069,0:40:13.759
majority of Bitcoin developers are

0:40:12.019,0:40:17.509
observed on the most atrocious or

0:40:13.759,0:40:20.799
Satoshi style so it's very unsettling to

0:40:17.509,0:40:24.589
my to my idea to be forced to kyc

0:40:20.799,0:40:27.619
developers it's very it's very Pro it's

0:40:24.589,0:40:29.930
a it's a mess of course there are some

0:40:27.619,0:40:33.259
workaround for example we could just

0:40:29.930,0:40:35.269
open source the website of the B that we

0:40:33.259,0:40:37.519
built in the last month and we could

0:40:35.269,0:40:39.619
have the projects exposing Bitcoin

0:40:37.519,0:40:41.539
addresses directly and people will be

0:40:39.619,0:40:43.910
coin donating Bitcoin directly to them

0:40:41.539,0:40:48.380
so in that case we are just basically a

0:40:43.910,0:40:50.809
website connecting bounty offer us with

0:40:48.380,0:40:54.920
bounty seekers but the problem with that

0:40:50.809,0:40:57.529
is that you I mean that could work but I

0:40:54.920,0:40:59.930
am this the suspect I'm afraid that it

0:40:57.529,0:41:01.969
will not be a lot of money because if

0:40:59.930,0:41:04.069
you are a legal entity you can donate

0:41:01.969,0:41:08.400
and write of the donation from your

0:41:04.069,0:41:11.670
balance sheet then you can justify the

0:41:08.400,0:41:13.619
the output up Loney and actually you can

0:41:11.670,0:41:16.619
have tax benefits but because that's a

0:41:13.619,0:41:20.099
donation but if you if you'd have to

0:41:16.619,0:41:21.900
send Bitcoin directly to not kyc

0:41:20.099,0:41:24.779
individuals without any kind of legal

0:41:21.900,0:41:26.670
entity in the middle then you cannot

0:41:24.779,0:41:29.400
write it off as a donation from your

0:41:26.670,0:41:33.019
balance sheets and so we will just have

0:41:29.400,0:41:35.579
like anonymous holders donating to

0:41:33.019,0:41:37.920
anonymous developers which is fine it's

0:41:35.579,0:41:41.069
very cypherpunk but it's also probably

0:41:37.920,0:41:43.769
not a lot of stuff not a lot of money if

0:41:41.069,0:41:46.079
I I mean I would imagine that right now

0:41:43.769,0:41:49.680
if I asked at the anonymous Bitcoin

0:41:46.079,0:41:52.289
holders to fund directly some

0:41:49.680,0:41:55.470
pseudonymous beacon developers maybe

0:41:52.289,0:41:59.130
this website would would facilitate the

0:41:55.470,0:42:01.829
exchange of ten thousand dollars away in

0:41:59.130,0:42:04.950
here or something like that while with

0:42:01.829,0:42:07.470
the with the actual idea of the B to be

0:42:04.950,0:42:09.839
able to acquire donation from establish

0:42:07.470,0:42:13.109
legal entities we could probably hope to

0:42:09.839,0:42:16.170
get something like $1,000,000 a which

0:42:13.109,0:42:17.910
would be way more interesting but very

0:42:16.170,0:42:20.339
very difficult so right now we are

0:42:17.910,0:42:23.009
discussing with participate guy in order

0:42:20.339,0:42:25.799
to try to move the idea from the

0:42:23.009,0:42:28.019
intestine to Japan and I have some

0:42:25.799,0:42:30.779
contacts with some people in Geneva that

0:42:28.019,0:42:32.970
are expect of NGO because if you think

0:42:30.779,0:42:35.339
about that what I mean think about the

0:42:32.970,0:42:37.829
Red Cross what the Red Cross does is

0:42:35.339,0:42:40.980
basically getting donation from illegal

0:42:37.829,0:42:43.170
entities and giving free stuff and free

0:42:40.980,0:42:46.019
money to people without any kind of kyc

0:42:43.170,0:42:47.910
so in theory it should be possible but

0:42:46.019,0:42:50.819
of course when there is Bitcoin involved

0:42:47.910,0:42:52.559
everything is kind of more more

0:42:50.819,0:42:55.319
dangerous and more delicate and

0:42:52.559,0:42:57.900
especially since this is was this is not

0:42:55.319,0:43:00.930
a for-profit project for me so I will

0:42:57.900,0:43:03.989
not keep a fee of the donation for me I

0:43:00.930,0:43:05.400
will just I will give to developers all

0:43:03.989,0:43:08.849
the money that we received in the

0:43:05.400,0:43:11.849
foundation I mean it's okay for me to

0:43:08.849,0:43:15.240
help the ecosystem but to carry over me

0:43:11.849,0:43:18.990
all the legal risk of money laundering

0:43:15.240,0:43:24.210
money laundering and investigations and

0:43:18.990,0:43:26.490
of kyc obligation and an overhead for

0:43:24.210,0:43:30.420
free it's probably not the kind of fun

0:43:26.490,0:43:33.089
that I like to have so my at this point

0:43:30.420,0:43:36.510
speaking with the other promoters of the

0:43:33.089,0:43:39.000
B we decided that before the next Baltic

0:43:36.510,0:43:41.849
on a budget conference since the idea of

0:43:39.000,0:43:44.130
the B started informally during the

0:43:41.849,0:43:46.380
dinner in a Baltic only budget compared

0:43:44.130,0:43:49.200
to thousands seventeen and then we

0:43:46.380,0:43:52.200
announce it publicly they actual the

0:43:49.200,0:43:56.190
actual start of the of the words to make

0:43:52.200,0:43:59.400
it real in Baltic on a batch of 2018 I

0:43:56.190,0:44:02.369
think that before Baltic on measure 2019

0:43:59.400,0:44:06.059
we will either deliver some big donation

0:44:02.369,0:44:08.369
to some project or just publish a post

0:44:06.059,0:44:11.369
mortem explaining why that's not

0:44:08.369,0:44:14.069
possible or not convenient for us so

0:44:11.369,0:44:16.109
we're still in we're still not out of

0:44:14.069,0:44:18.450
the hood with that but I agree with you

0:44:16.109,0:44:20.190
that it's a it's one of the most

0:44:18.450,0:44:24.299
important things in the ecosystem are

0:44:20.190,0:44:26.819
now to be able to bridge money and good

0:44:24.299,0:44:29.280
project right now bad projects can

0:44:26.819,0:44:32.420
access money very easily like launching

0:44:29.280,0:44:36.900
Escamilla CEO or launching an alkyne or

0:44:32.420,0:44:39.839
promoting scams while legit projects

0:44:36.900,0:44:44.430
they have a very hard time to get access

0:44:39.839,0:44:47.400
to some funding also I think even though

0:44:44.430,0:44:49.980
the technologies can be really great we

0:44:47.400,0:44:53.099
have trouble implementing a great user

0:44:49.980,0:44:56.220
experience that is easy to understand

0:44:53.099,0:44:58.140
and easy teased by anyone and I remember

0:44:56.220,0:45:00.839
the first time when I tried wasabi

0:44:58.140,0:45:02.579
wallet that I was a little bit scared

0:45:00.839,0:45:04.920
you know when when you put some bitcoins

0:45:02.579,0:45:07.619
in there and it just takes them away and

0:45:04.920,0:45:10.589
it sends it back to you in small amounts

0:45:07.619,0:45:13.170
it's frightening to see your savings

0:45:10.589,0:45:16.170
basically just being run around in a

0:45:13.170,0:45:19.770
system like that it was a strange

0:45:16.170,0:45:22.049
experience yeah there is a like there is

0:45:19.770,0:45:23.620
a Yoruba legend that beacon developers

0:45:22.049,0:45:27.040
are usually

0:45:23.620,0:45:30.640
the good UX there is some there could be

0:45:27.040,0:45:34.180
some some truth in this legend meaning

0:45:30.640,0:45:38.560
that very expert developers which are

0:45:34.180,0:45:42.250
very very professional and advanced

0:45:38.560,0:45:45.820
about cybersecurity and an open source

0:45:42.250,0:45:48.880
development they usually don't even

0:45:45.820,0:45:50.500
remember how it feels to be a user

0:45:48.880,0:45:52.930
without any kind of technical

0:45:50.500,0:45:55.150
understanding so it's difficult for for

0:45:52.930,0:45:58.030
a good computer science guy to

0:45:55.150,0:46:00.940
understand the very bad knowledge of a

0:45:58.030,0:46:04.630
of a random user so if you are a common

0:46:00.940,0:46:09.130
light guy with your server for you to

0:46:04.630,0:46:11.290
stall wasabi is probably a matter of 10

0:46:09.130,0:46:13.000
minutes but if you if you have to

0:46:11.290,0:46:15.580
promote wasabi for a guy that doesn't

0:46:13.000,0:46:17.770
have any server at all at all so they

0:46:15.580,0:46:20.830
have to install Linux from scratch just

0:46:17.770,0:46:24.400
to run or in this case Windows just to

0:46:20.830,0:46:28.720
run this stuff and then they have to to

0:46:24.400,0:46:31.210
rely on on a good graphical interface

0:46:28.720,0:46:33.610
because they don't know how to use the

0:46:31.210,0:46:37.180
command line so it's difficult for I

0:46:33.610,0:46:39.750
mean the better developer you are on the

0:46:37.180,0:46:42.460
fundamental things like security and

0:46:39.750,0:46:45.340
performances usually the worst you are

0:46:42.460,0:46:48.130
for for simple UX but there is also

0:46:45.340,0:46:51.280
another another consideration to do to

0:46:48.130,0:46:54.220
have a bad UX in this sense for

0:46:51.280,0:46:57.970
dangerous stuff is kind of good in my

0:46:54.220,0:46:59.980
opinion we go back to to incentive

0:46:57.970,0:47:02.320
models and game theory like like lithium

0:46:59.980,0:47:05.560
trainer so if you have to move an

0:47:02.320,0:47:08.290
important amount of bitcoins into some

0:47:05.560,0:47:10.750
kind of Cohen join or or Charmian coin

0:47:08.290,0:47:13.210
joining wasabi for example it's good

0:47:10.750,0:47:16.690
that you are scared so you don't have to

0:47:13.210,0:47:19.390
feel it as a very simple easy fast

0:47:16.690,0:47:23.530
seamless experience you should be

0:47:19.390,0:47:25.720
concerned focus you should read what you

0:47:23.530,0:47:29.350
are doing you should be you should

0:47:25.720,0:47:30.819
filter out people be among people people

0:47:29.350,0:47:33.039
that know what they are doing

0:47:30.819,0:47:36.009
that otherwise people will just lose a

0:47:33.039,0:47:38.979
lot of money so for fundamental security

0:47:36.009,0:47:41.949
critical activities it's kind of good

0:47:38.979,0:47:45.219
that we don't have any kind of super

0:47:41.949,0:47:48.130
easy UX yet because we don't want people

0:47:45.219,0:47:52.140
to be incentivized to shoot in their own

0:47:48.130,0:47:54.849
feet yet it would be easier when the

0:47:52.140,0:47:57.279
gradually the awareness and education

0:47:54.849,0:48:00.429
will be spread a little bit more but

0:47:57.279,0:48:02.109
right now it's better if you don't do

0:48:00.429,0:48:04.329
something if you don't know what you're

0:48:02.109,0:48:06.969
doing in this sensor light and network

0:48:04.329,0:48:08.939
is is again one of the best thing that

0:48:06.969,0:48:11.589
happened to the ecosystem because

0:48:08.939,0:48:15.910
enlightened network by definition it is

0:48:11.589,0:48:19.150
a it is deprecated the idea and even its

0:48:15.910,0:48:22.089
it's even like infeasible to to put a

0:48:19.150,0:48:25.719
lot of money into your payment channel

0:48:22.089,0:48:29.349
so there is like a natural protection

0:48:25.719,0:48:32.079
against against losing a lot of money

0:48:29.349,0:48:35.979
and and even in the typical use cases

0:48:32.079,0:48:38.859
for like network are little payments the

0:48:35.979,0:48:42.029
fast payments like if you want to play

0:48:38.859,0:48:46.509
with Satoshi's place and and buy some

0:48:42.029,0:48:49.239
some some pixels you can just fire up

0:48:46.509,0:48:52.299
your your light in network but you don't

0:48:49.239,0:48:55.809
put there a lot of money so many kind of

0:48:52.299,0:48:57.640
UX experiments they were dangerous from

0:48:55.809,0:49:00.249
a game to reach the point of view to

0:48:57.640,0:49:01.809
support with own shame Bitcoin because

0:49:00.249,0:49:04.449
people were going to lose a lot of money

0:49:01.809,0:49:06.849
they are not reckless anymore to support

0:49:04.449,0:49:10.059
in the context of the lighting Network

0:49:06.849,0:49:12.339
beta because we all know that it's a

0:49:10.059,0:49:15.099
beta and we all know that we shouldn't

0:49:12.339,0:49:17.529
ever even can't put a lot of money in a

0:49:15.099,0:49:21.069
beam in lighting channel so for example

0:49:17.529,0:49:24.959
I remember using for as an experiment

0:49:21.069,0:49:27.189
they meet a mask wallet for aetherium

0:49:24.959,0:49:28.029
probably was like one year ago or

0:49:27.189,0:49:30.309
something like that

0:49:28.029,0:49:32.979
I used meta mask extension for Chrome

0:49:30.309,0:49:35.140
and it was a great user experience and I

0:49:32.979,0:49:36.140
remember talking with Bitcoin experts

0:49:35.140,0:49:38.780
and developers

0:49:36.140,0:49:41.900
and I was like I mean why couldn't you

0:49:38.780,0:49:44.390
just create a wallet a browser extension

0:49:41.900,0:49:47.600
a Chrome extension this is easy like

0:49:44.390,0:49:51.230
meta mask I mean all these etherium that

0:49:47.600,0:49:54.350
this pseudo decentralized application

0:49:51.230,0:49:54.800
they with a web web web 3 or something

0:49:54.350,0:49:57.350
like that

0:49:54.800,0:49:59.540
we could just have a simple change

0:49:57.350,0:50:03.830
centralized website maybe over to other

0:49:59.540,0:50:06.260
onion over tor and we could just we

0:50:03.830,0:50:10.040
could just have a Chrome extension in

0:50:06.260,0:50:12.200
which we paid to the to the website in a

0:50:10.040,0:50:15.290
seamless way in an easy way and people

0:50:12.200,0:50:17.090
were answering me well you know that

0:50:15.290,0:50:19.010
would be bad because a lot of people

0:50:17.090,0:50:21.680
will lose money because Chrome

0:50:19.010,0:50:24.500
extensions are not safe and in general

0:50:21.680,0:50:26.810
JavaScript website and they should be

0:50:24.500,0:50:28.220
deactivated when you store so there is

0:50:26.810,0:50:30.890
that there is a lot of problems of

0:50:28.220,0:50:32.660
security but now that we have like an

0:50:30.890,0:50:35.810
apple in the context of the Latin

0:50:32.660,0:50:37.970
Network people created the Dajjal Chrome

0:50:35.810,0:50:38.980
extension which is pretty close to a

0:50:37.970,0:50:42.470
meta mask

0:50:38.980,0:50:46.340
CVM extension is I mean I wouldn't even

0:50:42.470,0:50:48.290
say it somehow is inspired to to meet a

0:50:46.340,0:50:50.600
mask in a good way

0:50:48.290,0:50:55.100
but now you can experiment with this

0:50:50.600,0:50:58.010
kind of a low-security toys and tools

0:50:55.100,0:51:01.100
because you are in the context with like

0:50:58.010,0:51:03.620
the network in which you shouldn't play

0:51:01.100,0:51:06.350
with a lot of money by default by design

0:51:03.620,0:51:08.510
so you can afford to lose some money and

0:51:06.350,0:51:10.790
you can afford to centralize a little

0:51:08.510,0:51:14.690
bit you can afford to to make it not

0:51:10.790,0:51:18.020
really censorship resistant you can you

0:51:14.690,0:51:20.180
can experiment with trade-off more on

0:51:18.020,0:51:23.120
second layer and even more on third and

0:51:20.180,0:51:25.490
fourth layer then you can do on the

0:51:23.120,0:51:27.440
first layer on first layer you have to

0:51:25.490,0:51:29.630
privilege security the centralization

0:51:27.440,0:51:32.810
political independence censorship

0:51:29.630,0:51:36.260
resistant and on the on the on the upper

0:51:32.810,0:51:40.490
layers you can experiment more with good

0:51:36.260,0:51:42.650
UX fast cheap and even if you go more

0:51:40.490,0:51:45.230
risky or more reckless or more

0:51:42.650,0:51:48.780
centralized so you are right about the

0:51:45.230,0:51:51.600
UX but I think that we are seeing a lot

0:51:48.780,0:51:55.230
for good you experiment with lightly

0:51:51.600,0:51:57.660
that we are not seeing with with the the

0:51:55.230,0:52:00.150
layer layer one of course the wasabi is

0:51:57.660,0:52:03.060
not really one of them because in wasabi

0:52:00.150,0:52:06.780
you can put a significant amount of

0:52:03.060,0:52:09.210
money into H omean conjoint so that's a

0:52:06.780,0:52:12.210
scale thing and it should be a scary

0:52:09.210,0:52:16.490
thing to do so it's it's reasonable that

0:52:12.210,0:52:19.260
wasabi still kind of scary to use I

0:52:16.490,0:52:22.350
think I have three more questions for

0:52:19.260,0:52:24.630
you and given the agreement that we have

0:52:22.350,0:52:26.880
made that this shit lasts an hour maybe

0:52:24.630,0:52:28.380
that is a good idea to present them in a

0:52:26.880,0:52:30.660
sequence and allow you to answer

0:52:28.380,0:52:33.990
whichever you prefer in the time that we

0:52:30.660,0:52:36.480
still have so that I don't just ask one

0:52:33.990,0:52:40.830
and end up discussing that for 15

0:52:36.480,0:52:42.570
minutes so usually I ask my guests what

0:52:40.830,0:52:45.180
it's like to be a Bitcoin or in your

0:52:42.570,0:52:48.060
country and if you can actually survive

0:52:45.180,0:52:51.600
with only Bitcoin for maybe a week or a

0:52:48.060,0:52:53.790
month if you can spend it anywhere the

0:52:51.600,0:52:56.520
second question is about your opinion on

0:52:53.790,0:52:59.730
lightning becoming too dependent on

0:52:56.520,0:53:02.280
companies that are centralized and how

0:52:59.730,0:53:04.020
you view this whole idea that at the end

0:53:02.280,0:53:07.140
of the day is going to be about Casa

0:53:04.020,0:53:09.570
competing with noddle competing maybe

0:53:07.140,0:53:12.840
with a company that bureaus shard

0:53:09.570,0:53:15.150
creates and there are going to be like

0:53:12.840,0:53:17.820
the apples and the Microsoft's of the

0:53:15.150,0:53:20.460
second layer of Bitcoin and the last

0:53:17.820,0:53:22.680
question is about your involvement if

0:53:20.460,0:53:25.020
you have any conferences that you're

0:53:22.680,0:53:27.060
attending any projects that you want to

0:53:25.020,0:53:28.620
promote because it at the end of the day

0:53:27.060,0:53:30.330
you're spending a whole hour here

0:53:28.620,0:53:34.220
talking to me and you should at least

0:53:30.330,0:53:37.140
have this benefit of promoting your work

0:53:34.220,0:53:41.100
thank you sure so let's start with the

0:53:37.140,0:53:43.260
first to define which is my country

0:53:41.100,0:53:45.450
right now is pretty complex because I

0:53:43.260,0:53:47.430
live in Switzerland right now since when

0:53:45.450,0:53:50.010
you are not in Italy anymore I spent

0:53:47.430,0:53:52.650
most of my personal professional life in

0:53:50.010,0:53:55.620
Italy so if I have to talk with you

0:53:52.650,0:53:57.570
about Italy first it's kind of it's kind

0:53:55.620,0:53:58.599
of difficult to live only on Bitcoin

0:53:57.570,0:54:00.910
there

0:53:58.599,0:54:04.089
with there is a very low merchant

0:54:00.910,0:54:06.849
adoption inside the country with with a

0:54:04.089,0:54:08.859
very few remarkable exception

0:54:06.849,0:54:12.279
while exception is the so called Bitcoin

0:54:08.859,0:54:15.190
valet which is in the north east of

0:54:12.279,0:54:17.460
Italy in a little city called Roberto

0:54:15.190,0:54:19.900
and if you go here over a toe you can

0:54:17.460,0:54:23.859
spend Bitcoin directly even with

0:54:19.900,0:54:26.200
lightning to buy food everywhere to to

0:54:23.859,0:54:27.940
buy gas at the gas station you can even

0:54:26.200,0:54:30.190
spend Bitcoin inside the airport the

0:54:27.940,0:54:33.099
official Apple store to buy Apple

0:54:30.190,0:54:35.619
products because it was like the work of

0:54:33.099,0:54:38.109
this startup called the in Bitcoin and

0:54:35.619,0:54:40.930
they made a wonderful working to make a

0:54:38.109,0:54:43.539
Bitcoin locally accepted with some kind

0:54:40.930,0:54:45.849
of interesting clothes looks like there

0:54:43.539,0:54:47.950
is a there is a bar which pays the

0:54:45.849,0:54:50.829
employees in Bitcoin and the employees

0:54:47.950,0:54:53.380
are spending Bitcoin in the local and

0:54:50.829,0:54:55.690
local mall and the mall accept Bitcoin

0:54:53.380,0:54:58.539
use the beacon to pay for the for the

0:54:55.690,0:55:00.670
for the cross provider of the of the

0:54:58.539,0:55:02.440
goods and so there is a circle which is

0:55:00.670,0:55:04.839
great there are other very few

0:55:02.440,0:55:07.660
exceptions like in a room you can

0:55:04.839,0:55:11.049
actually pay taxes with Bitcoin thanks

0:55:07.660,0:55:13.599
to thanks to a startup called the change

0:55:11.049,0:55:15.309
side but in general we said it's very

0:55:13.599,0:55:19.029
difficult to live in Bitcoin only of

0:55:15.309,0:55:21.960
course if my Bitcoin only you you mean

0:55:19.029,0:55:24.759
that you don't use a card like

0:55:21.960,0:55:28.299
automatically Bitcoin paid credit card

0:55:24.759,0:55:30.819
like wire racks or support or such a

0:55:28.299,0:55:34.749
thing is visible it's a little bit

0:55:30.819,0:55:36.910
better in zurich area and even if it's

0:55:34.749,0:55:39.390
muslim in you know Duke is the crypto

0:55:36.910,0:55:43.539
Valley which is mostly fake I mean just

0:55:39.390,0:55:46.539
just a a PR stunt in many regards but

0:55:43.539,0:55:49.539
there is a really some kind of easy

0:55:46.539,0:55:53.259
acceptance so it's it's kind of easy to

0:55:49.539,0:55:55.539
spend Bitcoin while it's more difficult

0:55:53.259,0:55:58.059
in the part of the switzerland i live in

0:55:55.539,0:55:59.829
which is the chino the southern italian

0:55:58.059,0:56:04.239
part of switzerland where there is a

0:55:59.829,0:56:07.210
well I mean the the city I am is is even

0:56:04.239,0:56:09.190
accepting Texas town taxes in Bitcoin

0:56:07.210,0:56:10.960
directory so there is a

0:56:09.190,0:56:13.569
I mean there are more events at the

0:56:10.960,0:56:17.049
Italy for sure still the point of

0:56:13.569,0:56:20.020
Bitcoin if you have any alternative so

0:56:17.049,0:56:22.450
if you have any fiat money income and I

0:56:20.020,0:56:24.849
think that I mean it's reasonable to

0:56:22.450,0:56:27.160
assume that many of us still have some

0:56:24.849,0:56:28.809
kind of fiat money income if that's the

0:56:27.160,0:56:31.720
case probably you should spend a fiat

0:56:28.809,0:56:33.910
money first and Bitcoin is not really

0:56:31.720,0:56:36.520
conceived to be used mainly in

0:56:33.910,0:56:39.430
brick-and-mortar face-to-face businesses

0:56:36.520,0:56:42.190
in which you can just use a fiat instead

0:56:39.430,0:56:44.289
I mean even if you are in a broken

0:56:42.190,0:56:47.470
economy like Venezuela and you have to

0:56:44.289,0:56:49.480
buy coffee Venezuela okay maybe the

0:56:47.470,0:56:52.569
economy's broken but if you have

0:56:49.480,0:56:54.640
bolivars you prefer to spend Bolivar for

0:56:52.569,0:56:56.470
the for buying the coffee and if you

0:56:54.640,0:57:00.069
don't have Bolivar anymore because your

0:56:56.470,0:57:02.740
body were just they just don't they are

0:57:00.069,0:57:04.690
just worthless because of inflation then

0:57:02.740,0:57:06.849
maybe if you are buying a coffee in

0:57:04.690,0:57:09.309
Venezuela you should use the US dollar

0:57:06.849,0:57:11.710
system the problem of the of u.s. dollar

0:57:09.309,0:57:14.020
cash administrator is that you cannot

0:57:11.710,0:57:16.000
store them efficiently in order to

0:57:14.020,0:57:18.099
protect the wealth of your family in

0:57:16.000,0:57:21.069
that case you need Bitcoin or you cannot

0:57:18.099,0:57:23.140
bring the US dollars in cash which begs

0:57:21.069,0:57:26.260
our cyber news reader if you are running

0:57:23.140,0:57:31.359
away so for that you need Bitcoin you

0:57:26.260,0:57:33.789
cannot smuggler a smuggle in dollar cash

0:57:31.359,0:57:36.190
for lab for political activists inside

0:57:33.789,0:57:38.529
Venezuela so you need Bitcoin for that

0:57:36.190,0:57:42.220
but for face to face

0:57:38.529,0:57:44.980
normal bit I mean coffee coffee

0:57:42.220,0:57:46.809
purchases I'm skeptical that we really

0:57:44.980,0:57:48.819
need to use Bitcoin the only cases in

0:57:46.809,0:57:50.890
which you need to use Bitcoin to buy

0:57:48.819,0:57:53.049
coffee is when you don't have anything

0:57:50.890,0:57:55.569
less than Bitcoin but this is a while

0:57:53.049,0:57:58.690
very I mean I respect people that are so

0:57:55.569,0:58:01.809
committed to be all in literally but I

0:57:58.690,0:58:05.349
mean my wealth is in Bitcoin and just be

0:58:01.809,0:58:08.950
coin but my monthly income is partly in

0:58:05.349,0:58:11.200
fear so III had to spend fiat first so

0:58:08.950,0:58:13.059
it's not really an issue for me to spend

0:58:11.200,0:58:15.160
Bitcoin agree where I try to save

0:58:13.059,0:58:18.039
Bitcoin and to spend fiat

0:58:15.160,0:58:21.320
whenever I can so the the second

0:58:18.039,0:58:24.590
question was about the centralization

0:58:21.320,0:58:29.170
enlighten network because of the the new

0:58:24.590,0:58:33.260
the new idea of the pre pre bootstrapped

0:58:29.170,0:58:36.290
Bitcoin full notes like like nod

0:58:33.260,0:58:37.010
launcher and Caza and node and soon

0:58:36.290,0:58:43.130
enough

0:58:37.010,0:58:45.650
probably dojo from from samurai and so

0:58:43.130,0:58:49.370
on so I think that I'm kind of

0:58:45.650,0:58:51.230
optimistic about this because the sheer

0:58:49.370,0:58:53.860
fact that we are already mentioning a

0:58:51.230,0:58:57.890
lot of competitors in this kind of

0:58:53.860,0:59:01.220
relatively super early stage business

0:58:57.890,0:59:05.150
which is selling pre-charge full nodes

0:59:01.220,0:59:06.740
it's kind of reassuring also getting

0:59:05.150,0:59:10.520
back to the discussion we had about the

0:59:06.740,0:59:13.700
three no I prefer that the user trusts

0:59:10.520,0:59:14.720
Casa Casa Hotel knowing that they are

0:59:13.700,0:59:19.250
trusting Quezada

0:59:14.720,0:59:21.710
then the user is trusting an unknown a

0:59:19.250,0:59:24.740
straight majority without even knowing

0:59:21.710,0:59:26.930
who is in control of this ashram

0:59:24.740,0:59:29.510
majority right now so it's a less

0:59:26.930,0:59:33.470
dangerous to trust a one specific

0:59:29.510,0:59:35.510
company than to trust a generic assured

0:59:33.470,0:59:40.430
majority systemically less dangerous

0:59:35.510,0:59:42.890
even if easier to censor locally so the

0:59:40.430,0:59:47.440
problem is that it would be a problem I

0:59:42.890,0:59:51.550
mean if if Samsung for example or Apple

0:59:47.440,0:59:55.070
started to take 90% of the market of

0:59:51.550,0:59:58.010
hardware full nodes or maybe Intel or or

0:59:55.070,1:00:00.850
even maybe I don't know ledger or some

0:59:58.010,1:00:03.530
Bitcoin company started to get the the

1:00:00.850,1:00:07.040
relevant majority of full nodes running

1:00:03.530,1:00:09.740
on their pre bootstrap systems then I

1:00:07.040,1:00:13.520
think it will become scary of course the

1:00:09.740,1:00:16.850
best thing will be to to have companies

1:00:13.520,1:00:19.900
providing open source software that you

1:00:16.850,1:00:24.160
can eventually check again some kind of

1:00:19.900,1:00:27.579
of proof so if you receive for example

1:00:24.160,1:00:30.309
a box from Casa but you can check which

1:00:27.579,1:00:33.039
kind of code is running on it again some

1:00:30.309,1:00:36.220
kind of open source repository maybe

1:00:33.039,1:00:38.319
with remote remote at the station or

1:00:36.220,1:00:40.510
advanced mechanism like that that would

1:00:38.319,1:00:42.970
be a great improvement also it's

1:00:40.510,1:00:46.059
important that we we do have this kind

1:00:42.970,1:00:50.280
of businesses making making it easier to

1:00:46.059,1:00:53.670
run for nodes but also some strategy to

1:00:50.280,1:00:56.470
to run for nodes with a totally

1:00:53.670,1:00:58.599
commodity hardware for example right now

1:00:56.470,1:01:01.809
one of your option to write to run a

1:00:58.599,1:01:04.510
full node is called a beak or as I was

1:01:01.809,1:01:08.109
saying before so you just buy an Android

1:01:04.510,1:01:11.770
TV a smart TV and you will run a beak or

1:01:08.109,1:01:14.319
on Android and so or you just buy an old

1:01:11.770,1:01:16.990
cell phone with Android you put an SD

1:01:14.319,1:01:19.750
card with a good really good memory

1:01:16.990,1:01:22.150
space on this older cell phone you plug

1:01:19.750,1:01:25.359
in this cell phone with your electricity

1:01:22.150,1:01:28.630
plug and you connect it with Wi-Fi now

1:01:25.359,1:01:31.089
you can run a full node at home in your

1:01:28.630,1:01:33.339
old cell phone and use your Apple cell

1:01:31.089,1:01:35.710
phone to connect over to your own full

1:01:33.339,1:01:37.690
node so that's good enough comfortably

1:01:35.710,1:01:40.089
you cannot yet do it with lighting

1:01:37.690,1:01:42.789
because there is not an Android version

1:01:40.089,1:01:45.930
for I like not yet but I know the

1:01:42.789,1:01:48.460
lorentz know of green hack we address is

1:01:45.930,1:01:51.160
working of course it's not a for-profit

1:01:48.460,1:01:53.410
business so they are doing that in the

1:01:51.160,1:01:55.930
spare time but they are willing to work

1:01:53.410,1:01:58.240
on an Android version of see lighting

1:01:55.930,1:02:00.099
and that would be great of course the

1:01:58.240,1:02:04.359
third strategy of mitigation that you

1:02:00.099,1:02:06.069
can use is is not trustless software by

1:02:04.359,1:02:08.920
the trees probably honest or an

1:02:06.069,1:02:12.490
auditable software so even if you cannot

1:02:08.920,1:02:15.339
guarantee that the Casa node for example

1:02:12.490,1:02:18.369
his company is doing what they say they

1:02:15.339,1:02:21.900
are doing as a software wise it's good

1:02:18.369,1:02:26.230
that you can open it up and check I mean

1:02:21.900,1:02:29.260
people can open up a Raspberry Pi and

1:02:26.230,1:02:31.150
check the the across software running on

1:02:29.260,1:02:34.960
it against

1:02:31.150,1:02:37.630
some kind of promises from from the

1:02:34.960,1:02:42.760
company so how did ability of the

1:02:37.630,1:02:46.540
software is very very important but in a

1:02:42.760,1:02:49.330
way you have to make you have to make

1:02:46.540,1:02:51.340
the game theory work you cannot have

1:02:49.330,1:02:55.200
perfect trust lessness that's impossible

1:02:51.340,1:02:57.610
because even if you I mean even if I run

1:02:55.200,1:02:59.830
Bitcoin core class and a true personal

1:02:57.610,1:03:02.320
server plus electro mean at times the

1:02:59.830,1:03:05.890
distribution in an hour gap computer

1:03:02.320,1:03:08.080
that are both in cash still maybe IBM

1:03:05.890,1:03:15.490
put some kind of very nasty backdoor on

1:03:08.080,1:03:17.980
it before and and some way version of

1:03:15.490,1:03:20.860
electric that I downloaded is also

1:03:17.980,1:03:24.550
tempered in a way that allows the Intel

1:03:20.860,1:03:26.650
processor to to to sneak peek some of my

1:03:24.550,1:03:29.920
private keys I mean I'm making this up

1:03:26.650,1:03:31.870
but you cannot have perfect mathematical

1:03:29.920,1:03:35.470
certainty of security what you need to

1:03:31.870,1:03:38.350
have is to you need to reduce the attack

1:03:35.470,1:03:40.360
surfaces if everybody was running in

1:03:38.350,1:03:43.210
hardware by Kaza

1:03:40.360,1:03:45.940
Hodor that would be worrying just like

1:03:43.210,1:03:49.000
if everybody was on a big ox it will be

1:03:45.940,1:03:52.210
worrying if everybody would be connected

1:03:49.000,1:03:55.180
with the same lighting node that would

1:03:52.210,1:03:57.820
be worrying so we have to avoid the

1:03:55.180,1:04:01.570
excesses of course when when we have

1:03:57.820,1:04:03.970
when we had one Isaac's producer

1:04:01.570,1:04:06.970
controlling it directly or indirectly

1:04:03.970,1:04:10.930
more than 80% of the of their sheep

1:04:06.970,1:04:12.940
power that was pretty boring so far the

1:04:10.930,1:04:15.130
cousin orders payment or the nozzle

1:04:12.940,1:04:17.950
experiment or the not launcher actually

1:04:15.130,1:04:20.020
I don't think that PR is is thinking

1:04:17.950,1:04:22.750
about monetizing that Epirus problem is

1:04:20.020,1:04:24.750
is releasing software not hardware that

1:04:22.750,1:04:28.210
means say that you don't have to trust

1:04:24.750,1:04:29.890
peer at all you just allow the the not

1:04:28.210,1:04:31.870
launcher which is open source so you can

1:04:29.890,1:04:34.530
review that and you can compile it and

1:04:31.870,1:04:36.310
check the signatures over on a Gideon

1:04:34.530,1:04:38.620
Gideon bill

1:04:36.310,1:04:42.540
and you can just run it on your computer

1:04:38.620,1:04:47.440
well noodler and dojo and the bit seed

1:04:42.540,1:04:49.300
and incasa hood nodes they require some

1:04:47.440,1:04:52.060
trust in the hardware they ship you

1:04:49.300,1:04:53.890
which is kind of I mean it's not easy to

1:04:52.060,1:04:56.050
do that right because for example maybe

1:04:53.890,1:04:58.060
the company is trustworthy but what

1:04:56.050,1:05:01.030
about the supply chain how do you know

1:04:58.060,1:05:03.970
that nobody tampered with your hardware

1:05:01.030,1:05:06.310
from the from the distributor from the

1:05:03.970,1:05:08.140
producer to to your home of course this

1:05:06.310,1:05:10.570
is way more critical we should talk

1:05:08.140,1:05:13.180
about our wallets so if you think about

1:05:10.570,1:05:16.810
the treasure or a ledger or digital beat

1:05:13.180,1:05:18.850
box in that case the supply chain attack

1:05:16.810,1:05:20.410
is very risky because you're using this

1:05:18.850,1:05:22.390
hard work to protect your private keys

1:05:20.410,1:05:25.360
if you're using your hard work to

1:05:22.390,1:05:28.780
protect the the enforcement of it

1:05:25.360,1:05:32.530
controls that's I think it's an order of

1:05:28.780,1:05:34.900
magnitude less scary the incentives to

1:05:32.530,1:05:37.440
attack you is still there but it's not

1:05:34.900,1:05:40.680
as direct as incentive to attack

1:05:37.440,1:05:44.710
hardware rollers so probably it's less

1:05:40.680,1:05:47.230
it's less important to guarantee the

1:05:44.710,1:05:49.960
supply chain integrity in Casa who do

1:05:47.230,1:05:52.660
note than it is in a in a treasurer for

1:05:49.960,1:05:54.850
example but still there are there are a

1:05:52.660,1:05:57.310
lot of things to to consider in this

1:05:54.850,1:05:58.750
market so about the last question that

1:05:57.310,1:06:02.050
you that you asked

1:05:58.750,1:06:05.200
thank you yes I do have a conference to

1:06:02.050,1:06:09.070
promote actually is not a for-profit

1:06:05.200,1:06:11.020
company it's not a for-profit conference

1:06:09.070,1:06:13.210
not that there is there is anything bad

1:06:11.020,1:06:14.980
in doing for-profit stuff we all have to

1:06:13.210,1:06:16.900
do for-profit start in order to live and

1:06:14.980,1:06:19.210
to improve what we do but in this case

1:06:16.900,1:06:21.850
it would be a conference which is paid

1:06:19.210,1:06:23.530
for so it's not a free conference of

1:06:21.850,1:06:26.110
course because there are not costs to

1:06:23.530,1:06:27.550
cover in order to to have the place and

1:06:26.110,1:06:30.220
the venue and speakers and everything

1:06:27.550,1:06:33.390
and it's called understanding Bitcoin

1:06:30.220,1:06:38.350
the website is understanding BTC

1:06:33.390,1:06:43.270
understanding BTC calm it will be from 5

1:06:38.350,1:06:45.820
to 7th from 5th to 7th of April of next

1:06:43.270,1:06:47.420
month so it's a pretty close but you can

1:06:45.820,1:06:50.269
still register

1:06:47.420,1:06:52.339
we have capacity up to 200 people and

1:06:50.269,1:06:56.269
right now I think we are little more

1:06:52.339,1:06:57.500
than than half so there is space I'm

1:06:56.269,1:07:00.019
very happy to organize this conference

1:06:57.500,1:07:04.760
I'm organizing it with Adam Becker and

1:07:00.019,1:07:07.010
Donbass the idea was born in Chile when

1:07:04.760,1:07:09.980
the three of us were discussing at the

1:07:07.010,1:07:14.480
table at the rabbit Kong for Chile in

1:07:09.980,1:07:16.819
Santiago and basically we realized that

1:07:14.480,1:07:19.369
this realize that right now Bitcoin

1:07:16.819,1:07:21.859
conferences are divided in two macro

1:07:19.369,1:07:23.690
categories on one hand you have the

1:07:21.859,1:07:26.420
technical conferences which are pretty

1:07:23.690,1:07:30.200
good like breaking Bitcoin coming up in

1:07:26.420,1:07:33.490
June in in Amsterdam it's a very good

1:07:30.200,1:07:36.349
conference you have a I mean you have

1:07:33.490,1:07:38.420
you have very good conferences but they

1:07:36.349,1:07:42.220
are very technical about building a

1:07:38.420,1:07:42.220
Bitcoin in Lisbon

1:07:43.099,1:07:48.230
scaling Bitcoin therapy or financial

1:07:46.609,1:07:51.170
crypto there are very technical

1:07:48.230,1:07:54.339
conferences with a very good level but

1:07:51.170,1:07:57.609
they are not for normal users there are

1:07:54.339,1:08:00.950
conferences in which technical people

1:07:57.609,1:08:03.890
tubes with other technical people so if

1:08:00.950,1:08:06.200
you are a typical power user of Bitcoin

1:08:03.890,1:08:08.450
which maybe is very interested in topic

1:08:06.200,1:08:11.089
you are enthusiasts you are a promoter

1:08:08.450,1:08:13.400
and evangelist or a power user but you

1:08:11.089,1:08:15.529
are not technical enough you could feel

1:08:13.400,1:08:18.560
very you could feel very uncomfortable

1:08:15.529,1:08:20.359
to go to to listen to a technical

1:08:18.560,1:08:22.310
conference like that on the other hand

1:08:20.359,1:08:24.370
on the other side of the spectrum you

1:08:22.310,1:08:26.960
have the scam conferences so you have

1:08:24.370,1:08:29.630
descriptive conference or blockchain

1:08:26.960,1:08:31.880
conference in which you feel welcome

1:08:29.630,1:08:34.219
because there is nothing technical to

1:08:31.880,1:08:35.799
understand so you can go you can go

1:08:34.219,1:08:38.600
there and they will not just talk

1:08:35.799,1:08:42.469
advanced technology they will talk a

1:08:38.600,1:08:45.049
user experience political implication

1:08:42.469,1:08:47.569
economical implication a personal

1:08:45.049,1:08:49.250
investment they will talk some kind of

1:08:47.569,1:08:52.909
language that the normal user can

1:08:49.250,1:08:54.080
understand but they will not be what

1:08:52.909,1:08:57.800
they will not have a good

1:08:54.080,1:09:02.780
the filter against noise and scans and

1:08:57.800,1:09:05.150
routes and and a snake-oil and an empty

1:09:02.780,1:09:08.240
buzzwords so if you go to a normal

1:09:05.150,1:09:11.030
crypto conference you can and you are a

1:09:08.240,1:09:12.980
normal non-technical user you feel that

1:09:11.030,1:09:14.839
you can under you can understand but

1:09:12.980,1:09:16.339
actually ninety percent of what you are

1:09:14.839,1:09:18.350
listening to is bullshit

1:09:16.339,1:09:20.839
well if you go to a real technical

1:09:18.350,1:09:23.210
Bitcoin conference you you have a very

1:09:20.839,1:09:25.490
good quality but you cannot fully

1:09:23.210,1:09:27.200
appreciate that so we thought that we

1:09:25.490,1:09:29.000
will need something in between we will

1:09:27.200,1:09:31.609
need something some kind of conference

1:09:29.000,1:09:34.490
in which you have the best tech

1:09:31.609,1:09:37.160
technical people explaining stuff but

1:09:34.490,1:09:39.440
not debating among themselves about the

1:09:37.160,1:09:42.710
cutting edge technology so not like a

1:09:39.440,1:09:45.170
Bitcoin core meet up with with Greg

1:09:42.710,1:09:49.250
natural discussing with SEPA about the

1:09:45.170,1:09:51.560
news nor signatures but instead just the

1:09:49.250,1:09:54.560
best technical people explaining non

1:09:51.560,1:09:57.350
technological people how to run the best

1:09:54.560,1:10:00.110
tools and the best practices that are

1:09:57.350,1:10:03.500
available right now so for example how

1:10:00.110,1:10:06.200
to install and run was not be safely how

1:10:03.500,1:10:08.690
to install and run a full node beat

1:10:06.200,1:10:12.770
Bitcoin cooler or maybe a leak or on

1:10:08.690,1:10:17.360
your cell phone or maybe how to properly

1:10:12.770,1:10:21.410
connect a node or or casas device how to

1:10:17.360,1:10:28.130
run a lightly network node beat syl.i

1:10:21.410,1:10:31.430
thing or envy or or such or so on how to

1:10:28.130,1:10:32.870
mix your coins with joint market for

1:10:31.430,1:10:36.680
example which is a very interesting

1:10:32.870,1:10:39.560
alternative to wasabi how to install BTC

1:10:36.680,1:10:42.110
pace server in order to earn a Bitcoin

1:10:39.560,1:10:45.800
on your website easily even with live

1:10:42.110,1:10:49.070
network how to how to run your life in a

1:10:45.800,1:10:51.320
tour notes on tour instead of on pre-med

1:10:49.070,1:10:54.260
so that you preserve your privacy more

1:10:51.320,1:10:57.740
how to use a miscue in order to buy and

1:10:54.260,1:11:00.160
sell Bitcoin without any kind of kyc or

1:10:57.740,1:11:02.980
or even more how to

1:11:00.160,1:11:05.290
to work as bit contractions when the

1:11:02.980,1:11:07.990
Internet is heavily censored so how to

1:11:05.290,1:11:11.080
run of course on tour with the N but

1:11:07.990,1:11:14.470
even on on satellite block from

1:11:11.080,1:11:16.360
satellite or Goten mesh networks radio

1:11:14.470,1:11:18.720
mesh networks and stuff like that so

1:11:16.360,1:11:22.000
these three days of conference will be

1:11:18.720,1:11:24.160
will there will not be either a

1:11:22.000,1:11:27.220
technical conference for technical guys

1:11:24.160,1:11:31.300
discussing among themselves nor it will

1:11:27.220,1:11:33.760
be a crypto conference where where

1:11:31.300,1:11:36.430
random scam projects get presented to

1:11:33.760,1:11:39.400
literate people it will be experts in a

1:11:36.430,1:11:42.040
Bitcoin ecosystem explaining how to use

1:11:39.400,1:11:45.160
the best tools available right now in

1:11:42.040,1:11:47.980
order to do Bitcoin stuff cool and and

1:11:45.160,1:11:51.180
useful Bitcoin stuff of course it's very

1:11:47.980,1:11:54.340
difficult to organize it because we are

1:11:51.180,1:11:57.910
managing a lot of different speakers and

1:11:54.340,1:12:03.340
it's kind of difficult to to manage this

1:11:57.910,1:12:06.280
kind of this kind of great lineup we

1:12:03.340,1:12:08.800
will have had a deep zone from join

1:12:06.280,1:12:11.260
market and Lords known from brilliant

1:12:08.800,1:12:15.670
dress and a bicolor atom fixer from

1:12:11.260,1:12:19.600
wasabi Vladimir underline from from

1:12:15.670,1:12:23.710
beacon core and Kristyn Decker from C

1:12:19.600,1:12:27.970
lightning and a lot of lot of great

1:12:23.710,1:12:30.910
people talking but it's challenging is

1:12:27.970,1:12:33.610
the first is the first time we try this

1:12:30.910,1:12:36.700
experiment and if it goes well as I hope

1:12:33.610,1:12:39.520
our intention is to do this kind of

1:12:36.700,1:12:42.250
stuff at least every year in order to

1:12:39.520,1:12:45.460
have a place where Bitcoin power users

1:12:42.250,1:12:48.640
can go and learn about the best tools on

1:12:45.460,1:12:51.130
the market of course in 2020 the best

1:12:48.640,1:12:54.010
tools will probably not be the same than

1:12:51.130,1:12:57.730
in 2019 so we want to make it an eery

1:12:54.010,1:12:59.520
conference and other Beck and myself we

1:12:57.730,1:13:02.110
are discussing about the problem and

1:12:59.520,1:13:03.970
told the easier is giving a great

1:13:02.110,1:13:06.970
support for organization and everything

1:13:03.970,1:13:09.970
there is a there is a lot of great guys

1:13:06.970,1:13:12.610
helping us organizing and moderating the

1:13:09.970,1:13:14.790
panels and as such so

1:13:12.610,1:13:16.900
I invite you to take a look at

1:13:14.790,1:13:20.770
understanding btizzy.com

1:13:16.900,1:13:22.480
and to come if you think you are inside

1:13:20.770,1:13:24.550
the target of this kind of conference

1:13:22.480,1:13:26.770
and to provide feedbacks of course there

1:13:24.550,1:13:28.599
will be free live streams so you can

1:13:26.770,1:13:31.300
watch the conference even without coming

1:13:28.599,1:13:34.270
but if you come I mean the idea is is

1:13:31.300,1:13:37.599
that people should come the third the

1:13:34.270,1:13:40.719
first two days will be frontal worship

1:13:37.599,1:13:44.040
the the third day will probably be

1:13:40.719,1:13:47.559
something like something like a

1:13:44.040,1:13:50.469
basically an hackathon but where people

1:13:47.559,1:13:53.550
can actually divide into groups and they

1:13:50.469,1:13:55.869
can try to implement what they learned

1:13:53.550,1:14:00.309
running this kind of software so it

1:13:55.869,1:14:02.110
should be should be very cool yeah so

1:14:00.309,1:14:03.790
when is it because I've listened to all

1:14:02.110,1:14:05.770
these details about what it's going to

1:14:03.790,1:14:10.000
be like and who is participating but I

1:14:05.770,1:14:14.230
didn't memorize the dates so it's a 5th

1:14:10.000,1:14:17.440
to 7th of April so on the fifth and on

1:14:14.230,1:14:19.800
the 6th we will have the day up to our

1:14:17.440,1:14:23.349
workshops where we will teach people

1:14:19.800,1:14:25.719
what to how to run tours on the 7th they

1:14:23.349,1:14:28.989
will probably be a more traditional kind

1:14:25.719,1:14:31.869
of conference and that maybe some people

1:14:28.989,1:14:34.420
could stay even for the 4 dates for a

1:14:31.869,1:14:36.610
final hand sonar Catan so we are still

1:14:34.420,1:14:38.679
defining the agenda little bit and it's

1:14:36.610,1:14:41.219
very late to find the agenda because

1:14:38.679,1:14:46.239
it's very close but anyway the dates are

1:14:41.219,1:14:47.980
5 until 7 of April and you can find the

1:14:46.239,1:14:49.710
registration everything on understanding

1:14:47.980,1:14:53.639
btizzy.com

1:14:49.710,1:14:56.619
that sounds very good if I was around

1:14:53.639,1:14:58.329
Switzerland or Malta is it at Malta

1:14:56.619,1:14:59.829
sorry more time yeah it's important yes

1:14:58.329,1:15:01.389
just thinking of where you are as

1:14:59.829,1:15:04.090
opposed to where it's taking place

1:15:01.389,1:15:06.190
if I were in Malta or close to it or had

1:15:04.090,1:15:08.679
more money than I do right now I would

1:15:06.190,1:15:11.710
definitely come just to meet you guys

1:15:08.679,1:15:15.550
even if I just had to sit there and

1:15:11.710,1:15:19.630
watch you exchange bitcoins and Cohen

1:15:15.550,1:15:20.610
join your wallets yeah should be very

1:15:19.630,1:15:22.470
good

1:15:20.610,1:15:24.570
please take a look at the live stream

1:15:22.470,1:15:26.370
and provide feedback because it's the

1:15:24.570,1:15:29.220
first time we try with such an

1:15:26.370,1:15:32.340
experiment and maybe we maybe we are

1:15:29.220,1:15:35.760
onto some kind of very useful format for

1:15:32.340,1:15:39.450
conferences yeah that's that should be

1:15:35.760,1:15:41.550
interesting and I look forward to it so

1:15:39.450,1:15:44.010
right thank you very much for this

1:15:41.550,1:15:45.570
interview it was great and you taught me

1:15:44.010,1:15:47.970
a lot of stuff and you gave me some

1:15:45.570,1:15:51.060
ideas for articles I think I'm getting

1:15:47.970,1:15:52.770
to look more into neutrino and see what

1:15:51.060,1:15:56.040
it's all about and then publish

1:15:52.770,1:16:00.510
something as I feel very pressing issue

1:15:56.040,1:16:02.550
and people are interested yeah it is and

1:16:00.510,1:16:05.430
in order to clarify I think it's a great

1:16:02.550,1:16:08.040
great tank and the intention of many of

1:16:05.430,1:16:11.190
the proposals or the proponents are very

1:16:08.040,1:16:14.760
good and especially Pierre is a peer not

1:16:11.190,1:16:18.240
launcher is great and and even the work

1:16:14.760,1:16:21.390
that la Rose be field about neutrino is

1:16:18.240,1:16:25.020
a great work very useful for for Bitcoin

1:16:21.390,1:16:27.690
the problem is just being sure about the

1:16:25.020,1:16:32.130
right incentives here not not about not

1:16:27.690,1:16:34.710
using the tech right I guess there's a

1:16:32.130,1:16:36.720
lot to read about it I found some reddit

1:16:34.710,1:16:39.720
threads while you're speaking of it and

1:16:36.720,1:16:42.510
there is one called PSA and I'm going to

1:16:39.720,1:16:46.050
begin with that one and also read the

1:16:42.510,1:16:48.210
proposal so thank you very much this was

1:16:46.050,1:16:50.190
enlightening and if you're in Romania

1:16:48.210,1:16:53.310
there's also a conference around here

1:16:50.190,1:16:56.960
and yeah yeah I know I was invited for

1:16:53.310,1:16:59.520
the next fall if I'm not mistaken and I

1:16:56.960,1:17:02.400
mean I have to check the logistics but I

1:16:59.520,1:17:04.260
think I will be there really that that's

1:17:02.400,1:17:08.190
really awesome because I'm also trying

1:17:04.260,1:17:11.340
to get there generally yeah that I get

1:17:08.190,1:17:13.200
to meet Peter Todd and the mother people

1:17:11.340,1:17:16.200
who are participating and might be there

1:17:13.200,1:17:19.920
I think also puro chard has more or less

1:17:16.200,1:17:21.410
confirmed that that's awesome yeah yeah

1:17:19.920,1:17:25.380
absolutely

1:17:21.410,1:17:28.230
it was fun thank you so thank you very

1:17:25.380,1:17:30.270
much this was great and maybe that in

1:17:28.230,1:17:32.340
some other season we have many more

1:17:30.270,1:17:35.210
topics to discuss and I'm going to

1:17:32.340,1:17:38.270
and you're going to express your always

1:17:35.210,1:17:41.820
controversial to some extent opinions

1:17:38.270,1:17:43.620
but sure this space is great as you have

1:17:41.820,1:17:46.560
all these voices and all these people

1:17:43.620,1:17:50.760
who present all the sides and all the

1:17:46.560,1:17:55.470
risks and I think that some of our

1:17:50.760,1:17:58.500
politicians should take notice working

1:17:55.470,1:18:01.170
and how no change sometimes means that

1:17:58.500,1:18:03.990
the system works and you shouldn't rush

1:18:01.170,1:18:07.440
into creating chaos just because you

1:18:03.990,1:18:10.310
have this vanity to create reform or be

1:18:07.440,1:18:12.840
remembered as having some kind of legacy

1:18:10.310,1:18:14.850
yeah well I would have to say to

1:18:12.840,1:18:18.390
politicians that they should just learn

1:18:14.850,1:18:21.030
to learn to code and and wait for the

1:18:18.390,1:18:23.520
takeover of Bitcoin over the political

1:18:21.030,1:18:28.530
system so I'm sorry guys sorry for your

1:18:23.520,1:18:31.290
loss yeah I look forward to that so I'll

1:18:28.530,1:18:33.320
see you later see you later bye laughs

1:18:31.290,1:18:33.320
bye

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Written by Vlad
I like Bitcoin and I'm helping it take over.